I Wonder If

[echnidna]

I Wonder If it is economically possible to build a relocateable fire safety shelter that could withstand bushfires.

[wheelinround]

I Wonder If it is economically possible to build a relocateable fire safety shelter that could withstand bushfires.

Bob
Why build one when a shipping container is ideal, although these can take some serious heat whats inside has been know to combust. The solve the problem of moving to
Cheap as chips for approx $2k a 25ft x 8.5ft w for approx $2k try e-pay (http://shop.ebay.com.au/items/_W0QQ_nkwZshippingQ20containerQQ_armrsZ1QQ_fromZR40QQ_mdoZ)


Ray

[Groggy]

I should imagine you could easily build a heat reflector type shed out of iron on the frame of a trailer. It would need iron on the outside to defend against combustibles and raw heat, have several very thick layers of insulation, be able to be strongly anchored to the ground and have an air supply inside plus water etc. You would have to have skirts reaching the ground so you did not get heat underneath and turn it into a grill. Even then it would only be suitable till the fire had flashed over. Having fought some serious fires first-hand the best defence for a novice is still flight well beforehand. They simply cannot comprehend the heat and ferocity of a wildfire so they underestimate it.

If you want to stay I reckon the best defence is a proper in-ground shelter, even then lack of oxygen and smoke can be a killer. I would not feel comfortable in something like this (http://www.sciencentral.com/articles/view.php3?article_id=218392023) either.

[Shedhand]

Bring back under-slab basements with an emergency supply of compressed air bottles and breathing masks. Wouldn't need a big supply as any fire will soon pass over a burned out house. Would add little to the cost of a home construction I'd think. Only in bush-fire prone areas.

[echnidna]

that would work but it won't help people in existing houses.

ps I'd love a basement but I'm not gunna dig a room out by hand

[Gra]

One of the guys that survived yesterday, did use a shipping container, it was encased in cement He had to use a wet towel to open the door after the fire front had passed it was that hot.

[RETIRED]

Bring back under-slab basements with an emergency supply of compressed air bottles and breathing masks. Wouldn't need a big supply as any fire will soon pass over a burned out house. Would add little to the cost of a home construction I'd think. Only in bush-fire prone areas.The biggest problem with this is that the house collapses on top of it.

[mic-d]

What about a reflective insulated shield that floated on water? Throw it in the swimming pool and get under it. A hose to a bottle of compressed air under water provides air and a positive pressure to keep ash etc out. Could be used in a pool, dam. Made small or large for a community pool. Don't have a pool? Establish a community network of equipped pools to retreat to.
:?

Cheers
Michael

[fxst]

I'm with groggy on this one. Having fought a couple bushfires in my youth the safest thing is run away from them and hope your insurance co is honest.
How erver if ringed by fire which can and has happened then a safe shelter would be niceto have. The problem then is people would stay as why run if we have a shelter??
I would still evacuate and hope any lowlife taking advantage would be consumed by the flames..get em ready for the afterlife...:2tsup:...if there is one of course :D

[echnidna]

I'm with groggy on this one. Having fought a couple bushfires in my youth the safest thing is run away from them and hope your insurance co is honest.
How erver if ringed by fire which can and has happened then a safe shelter would be niceto have. The problem then is people would stay as why run if we have a shelter??
I would still evacuate and hope any lowlife taking advantage would be consumed by the flames..get em ready for the afterlife...:2tsup:...if there is one of course :D

I totally agree with Groggy & you, one bushfire is enough,
But if you get caught by surprise before you can SAFELY evacuate it would be practical to have a last minute fallback position.

[echnidna]

The cellar idea could work but as mentined debris could be a problem exiting.
You could also have a cellar under a shed, or perhaps even use a mechanics pit in a garage or shed.

[RETIRED]

Many moons ago when I was a mere lad I was involved in fighting the fires in the Otways.

Through no fault of our own we got trapped and the fire nearly engulfing us.

The crew captain at that time was an old fire fighter. He told us to dig a slit trench and get in, cover ourselves with a blanket or canvas beaters and pull dirt over ourselves leaving the blanket to cover our faces.

The fire came over the top of us and destroyed the truck but we all survived albeit with some minor burns.

[bsrlee]

Shipping containers by themselves are too high - too much surface exposed to radiant heat. Also carbon steel is too good a conductor. I've seen a few that have been thru' minor fires and they went 'woof' - even had welded patches fall off.

A 'portable' shelter would be a low structure, with crawl in access only, lie down on the floor. Probably dual wall stainless steel (a relatively poor conductor) with a layer of 'blown' aluminium oxide - the stuff they use for pottery kiln walls - between the skins.

The under floor 'atomic bunker' has a lot going for it for most people. Just plan it when building a shed or doing some other renovation, dig a big hole, concrete walls & floor, access/escape tunnel that leads away from any buildings, basic cast bench seating, trap door in roof to load supplies in when things get hairy. There are quite a few on-line articles from the 1950-60's era on DIY atomic shelters for some ideas.

If you don't need it constantly stocked up you could use a concrete inground rain tank as the basis, just pump out the water when you need to hide, lower in supplies & essentials thru' the roof hatch then 'fort up' until the threat has passed.

[echnidna]

The problem with underground is how do you keep them down.
I've seen empty concrete septic tanks float up after a long wet spell

[mic-d]

swimming pool swimming pool swimming pool:D

that's my other cat cassie, her turn for a while...
Cheers
Michael

[Sturdee]

swimming pool swimming pool swimming pool:D



Don't think that's so good, heard today on the radio about a guy who had a concrete tank full with 800 gallons of water where the water was boiling after the fire had passed. So hot was the inferno.

Peter.

[echnidna]

There's been a few people boiled alive from jumping into water tanks in a bushfire.

[mic-d]

Don't think that's so good, heard today on the radio about a guy who had a concrete tank full with 800 gallons of water where the water was boiling after the fire had passed. So hot was the inferno.

Peter.

I'm thinking inground pool. With the cover I suggested earlier. 800 gallons of water's not much compared to a swimming pool and it was probably above ground too.

Cheers
Michael

[RETIRED]

There's been a few people boiled alive from jumping into water tanks in a bushfire.Too true.

[ian]

I Wonder If it is economically possible to build a relocateable fire safety shelter that could withstand bushfires.
define "economically possible"

anything is "possible" — you could coat the external walls and roof of a shed with the sort of heat tiles they use on the space shuttle — but can you afford it?


as someone else said inground SWIMMING POOL to which I'll add PLUS diesel powerd water pump and spray system that drains from the house back into the pool

small pools and elevated tanks are just traps because the water boils.



ian

[Lignin]

I believe the Yanks have "Fireproof" trucks which spray fire retardant over the cab.I do not know how efficient they are,
I was taught a survival technique similar to that outlined by ---dig a scrape, or. if time is short, get down as low as possible ,preferrably to the lee side of something incombustible, and cover yourself with what ever comes to hand.I think I might call upon the Deities too.:2tsup:

[Chris Parks]

I never want to be in a big fire a few small ones was enough including one straight over the top of our tanker. Re swimming pools, there was a well documented case in Sydney where a woman died in an inground pool so they are not foolproof either. If you have not been involved you have got absolutely no idea of the sheer overwhelming nature of a rampaging bush fire and I hope you never find out. Every well planned move vanishes and panic sets in even for the most well trained, firefighters, police everyone. The s**t hits the fan in the biggest possible way and survival literally becomes a matter of sheer luck and the grace of god. I have got a plan and used it a few years ago, take everything not insured and leave the rest we were just lucky we did not have to do an insurance claim. I will be surprised if the forum comes out unscathed from this and I wish everyone in Victoria the best in coping with this terrible tragedy. Good to hear from you Fred.

[RETIRED]

According to the news just on: 85 fatalities and 750 houses lost.

[mic-d]

Don't think that's so good, heard today on the radio about a guy who had a concrete tank full with 800 gallons of water where the water was boiling after the fire had passed. So hot was the inferno.

Peter.

Spent much of the night thinking about this problem.

When I said swimming pool, I was bumping my earlier idea for a properly designed fire shelter for use in association with a swimming pool. If something as simple as this works:
http://www.anclotefire.com/proddetail.php?prod=FS-x
and 's personal experience suggests, it can be done.

Some of the problems of an underground shelter has been outlined, most people wouldn't have one anyway. I wouldn't trust a mechanics pit, given it might have a structure over it, be near flammable material and is probably saturated with sump oil.

A inground swimming pool probably has no overhead structure and would be a huge heat sink. With the appropriate design, the water could be utilized very effectively. For example, if you sit in a bath tub of water under a tree on a 40º day, the water will draw away a certain amount of heat until it reaches an ambient temperature, quite a bit of energy but nothing compared to the energy it draws away on vaporization or evaporation. Just evaporating a litre of that water would account for a good portion of the all the heat the water has absorbed.
I've been thinking of how to engineer this to make it failsafe for deployment and effective. I thought of integrating something like this blind:
http://www.firelinings.co.uk/fire-curtain.php
into sun shade structures, that would be gravity deployed, but I think it is overly complicated and would necessitate cooling of the structure and provide too great a surface area to be affected by radiant heat and wind.
I've come back to something simple similar to a pool blanket on a roller made out of something like this:
http://www.firezat.com/
The outer border would be weighted like a cast net (only heavier) to keep it under water, inside that would be a bladder running around the perimeter of the blanket, and in the centre would be another bladder. To deploy it you would just run it straight off into the pool in a matter of seconds, dive in and pull a CO2 canister that inflates the bladders giving an air space underneath, you would also incorporate compressed air canister for longer duration. To go up one more level you would have a small diesel engine pump in a waterproof housing that you'd start and drop to the bottom of the pool. The pump would cycle water cooling to the engine, water cooling to the air intake snorkel and primarily to sprinklers sraying over the shelter to cool by evaporative cooling.
Think that about sums it up.

Cheers
Michael

[fenderbelly]

I should imagine you could easily build a heat reflector type shed out of iron on the frame of a trailer. It would need iron on the outside to defend against combustibles and raw heat, have several very thick layers of insulation, be able to be strongly anchored to the ground and have an air supply inside plus water etc. You would have to have skirts reaching the ground so you did not get heat underneath and turn it into a grill. Even then it would only be suitable till the fire had flashed over. Having fought some serious fires first-hand the best defence for a novice is still flight well beforehand. They simply cannot comprehend the heat and ferocity of a wildfire so they underestimate it.

If you want to stay I reckon the best defence is a proper in-ground shelter, even then lack of oxygen and smoke can be a killer. I would not feel comfortable in something like this (http://www.sciencentral.com/articles/view.php3?article_id=218392023) either.

I was talking to the guy who runs our little brigade here and he said that the items in Groggys' link had been discussed here in SA and is still on the table but they are used in the USA by firefighters who parachute into places to fight fires, while here most if not all fireies are with their fire truck.

Cheers Fred

[sailingamerican]

I should imagine you could easily build a heat reflector type shed out of iron on the frame of a trailer. It would need iron on the outside to defend against combustibles and raw heat, have several very thick layers of insulation, be able to be strongly anchored to the ground and have an air supply inside plus water etc. You would have to have skirts reaching the ground so you did not get heat underneath and turn it into a grill. Even then it would only be suitable till the fire had flashed over. Having fought some serious fires first-hand the best defence for a novice is still flight well beforehand. They simply cannot comprehend the heat and ferocity of a wildfire so they underestimate it.

If you want to stay I reckon the best defence is a proper in-ground shelter, even then lack of oxygen and smoke can be a killer. I would not feel comfortable in something like this (http://www.sciencentral.com/articles/view.php3?article_id=218392023) either.

Iron? You have not seen melted cars from fire storms.
Steel gets so hot you would blister inside and it would suck all the air out. They make fire tents but even here in So California we had 5 fire men die in the middle of a fire. They were in the pop up shelter and died from smoke and burns. I feel so sad and bad about the fires there in Australia. Our gvernment gets everyone out. There are those who refuse to leave but there is no excuse for deaths a day after the fires started. I do not understand why people did not leave. Hard one for me to follow. We have had huge fires here. In one month 7 years ago we had 8 big fires and lost 6,000 homes. Only several deaths from elderly people who could not get out or refused to leave. There is no excuse for the loss of life. It is not the governments place to save you. Education I guess is the answer. I donated to several funds. I have a lot of family in Australia and we are following the news morning and night. Our prayers are will all.

[Groggy]

Iron? You have not seen melted cars from fire storms.
If you look at the remains of the houses, one of the very few items still recognisable is corrugated iron roofing sheets. The iron in my post was suggested as an outer reflective layer supported by multiple layers of heat insulating materials. The intent with any portable shelter is to get in as clear an area as possible, away from fuel, and wait till the 'firestorm' has passed. So if the user can get into a reasonably clear area (road) they should stand a fair chance. Any such a device would have to be tested by fire authorities and they would give it a pretty strenuous testing.

I read another post where shuttle style ceramic tiles were suggested - this may be an even better solution.

[echnidna]

I read another post where shuttle style ceramic tiles were suggested - this may be an even better solution.

oooooohhh, think I'll head orf ter Broken Hill (I think) and stake out some mining claims coz thats where the raw material fer the shuttle comes from.

[Jim Carroll]

After the Ash Wednesday fires when there was a crew from Linton that were caught and lost their lifes it was made mandatory that the tankers could not be run dry and there is a small reserve that can be used in these situations so they can spray the tanker and keep the fire away.

Not sure if it would have been effective enough with what happened over the weekend as this was more extreme.

A bunker in ground away from the house with a backup pump from a concrete tank to spray water over the bunker to help keep it cool till the fire passes would help. As they say it is usually 6 minutes from start to finish and if set up properly could save a lot more lives. Needs to be a mandatory thing for anyone in these types of enviroments.

It is stuborness that kills people as they think we can save the house, some yes most no.

[Groggy]

oooooohhh, think I'll head orf ter Broken Hill (I think) and stake out some mining claims coz thats where the raw material fer the shuttle comes from.The ceramic tile idea has merit I think. We don't have to have super expensive 'shuttle' tiles, just something that can take a furnace heat for 20 minutes or so.

Clay might be a good insulator too but making it into a portable solution would be problematic.

(I didn't know the shuttle tiles came from Broken Hill, how about that!)

[Christopha]

Buy a concrete tank, bury it as deep as you can, make sure nothing can fall on top, jump in as the fire approaches. Doesn't matter if it has SOME water in it as you will only be in there till the fire passes..... Oh, and make sure there is a ladder inside so you can easily get out!

[Groggy]

Ok, now tell us how to make it PORTABLE :D

[tea lady]

So maybe I should make my pile of fire bricks into a cubby house shape!! :cool: But not kiln shaped as you wouldn't want to start an updraft. :doh: Not portable know, but......

[Chris Parks]

Not to be critical of all the suggestions but hands up those who have been in a fair dinkum raging bushfire? From all reports these fires were moving at over a kilometer a minute and that gives precious little time to do anything. Yes, something needs to be done especially in that area but what that is remains to be seen. If pushed for a suggestion I would say an igloo type structure with another igloo inside that, all built of double brick. Old brick kilns were built in this manner and they kept the heat in, so one built this way would keep the heat out. It has to be kept simple as all reason and the ability to think goes out the window when people are subjected to the violence of big fires, ask any volo firey and he will tell you the same thing.

[echnidna]

Ive been at the fire front of a "small" bush fire ,
that's scary enough to not want to get in the way of a big fire.

I forsee in the relatively near future all houses in the bush, maybe even all those outside suburban areas, are going to be compelled to have some type of emergency refuge.

It may even come that all cars registered in rural areas will have to carry a portable fire tent.

[echnidna]

If pushed for a suggestion I would say an igloo type structure with another igloo inside that, all built of double brick. Old brick kilns were built in this manner and they kept the heat in, so one built this way would keep the heat out.

I could dig out some pics of brick/concrete walls that disintegrated during the Ash Wednesday fires 20 years ago.

So I'm not altogether convinced about that idea though it would be better than nothing.

I think that permanent shelters need to be dug in as Stoppers suggested.

[Ellemcbeast]

Have you seen this?

http://www.agriboard.com/Agriboard%20Images/Fire%20+%20Storm%20Brochure.pdf

at www.Agriboard.com (http://www.Agriboard.com)

Claims strong insulating capabilities.

[Lignin]

Was talking to a friend from Healsville Sanctuary last night when she dropped the mention that the Victorian building codes for fire prone areas specify that domestic buildings must now incorporate a fireproof, bunker type room.
As we were discussing the welfare of the collection (All moved to other zoos and sanctuaries) I didn't follow it up.
Does anyone know if this is so, and, if so, what is the design??

[echnidna]

That really looks the bees knees. :)

I'd like to see what the CSIRO thinks of it.

Now if it floats it would even be a flood refuge as well as a fire & cyclone refuge :D

[Chris Parks]

Underground shelters lead to other problems. keeping them clear of water can be one issue, keeping the entrance clear can be another along with the engineering needed just to build it. I doubt that the authorities would go as far as making them compulsory for a lot of reasons. You can see the quandry that the stay & fight advice has brought upon them, shelters could fall into the same category of criticism in the future. I could say that all houses should be underground, it would serve the same purpose, the only problem with that is it is not viable to do that and the costs escalate. While people live in the bush & I am one of those, then they accept the responsibility of that decision and all that goes with it. Harsh but true. BTW there is no way an underground shelter would work on our land, it would be right in the path of the fire, not in the lee of the house and would cost a fortune to put in with the risk of it becoming impossible to exit due to fallen debris. If the original owners had put an underground house on the block it would have been perfect and this is what I would do if I ever win the lottery.

[abrogard]

I find this whole topic very interesting. Seems to me we are all seriously under educated in this. In a country like ours this ability - surviving bushfires - should be taught from the earliest age.

First we'd need some skill in assessing danger, I would think. And that would include an assessment of the heat likely to be experienced, the smoke, the length of time.

Surely there's some places with virtually NIL danger?

And others with what we might call 100% danger or NIL safety factor?

And all grades between.

So I think a basic Australian skill should be to be able to assess the fire danger of any particular area, building, home, whatever.

And along with that would come an assessment of the appropriate safe shelter for those circumstances.

Seems to me without this assessment procedure all safety shelter provisions, debates, laws, regulations, are putting the cart before the horse.

It could well be, in many instances, that the simplest protection is to change the house, the area, from high danger to low danger.

After all this discussion and after the terrible, terrible tragedies I must confess that - even though I spent most of my life in the country one way or another - I am still unable to assess relative fire danger between different home, different locations and still wouldn'tt know how to fireproof a home to suit all those different locations.

I wouldn't be much help to you if a fire was coming and you asked me to help.

But I should know. We all should.

What happens? Burning sparks lodge in the eaves? Or the fierce heat just makes wooden walls start to burn? Or is it curtains that burn?

It'd be different things in different places.

How much danger to a house standing in the centre of 5acres of brown grass?

I saw countrymen on television apparently with homes standing in the centre of bare paddocks and the treeline a long way away - hundred yards at least - and they were fearful of surviving and talking of moving out and leaving it to the fire.

It's all a mystery to me and I don't think it should be.

regards,

ab :)

[wattlewemake]

Something like this maybe? If it is as good as it says, well it should be made mandatory.

http://www.barricade.com.au/