Is it legal to take a fallen branch from a national Park?

[Timber stacker]

Today I went for a ride at the One Tree Hill national park in Bendigo and with the wind we had last week, a few branches have fallen on to the mountain bike track. Would it be legal for me to remove parts of these branches for turning? I would only be taking small amounts that I could fit in to a back pack. And if I had to ask some authority should I ask the: DSE, EPA or the Bendigo</ST1:p</ST1:C council?

[Big Shed]

That park is managed by Parks Victoria from memory, so you would have to ask them.

No need to waste a phone call though, the answer would be no it isn't legal to take anything from a park.

But then....................

[horse123]

yes taking or removal of any timber fallen or otherwise is a big no no in victoria, This may change in the future after the bush fire,:U
regards horse

[Ron Dunn]

Definitely not.

I live near that reserve, and if I saw you removing anything I'd be delighted to (a) take your photograph, and (b) deliver it to the appropriate officers in Epsom.

Sorry for being so harsh, but there's a pretty big dickhead element in Bendigo - just look at the motorcycle menace around this area - and once one person starts something the rest pile in straight away. There would be chainsaws and bulldozers before you could say "bogan".

[Timber stacker]

Ok then looks like i'll be going to the timber yard for my turning.

[Barry_White]

I don't know about Victoria, but in NSW it is illegal to take any timber from not only National Parks but also traveling stock routes as well as any dept of lands or RTA land along the side of the road.

Also if the Dept of Forestry and the greenies have their way they will be trying to stop private land holders from taking timber off their own property but that will be over my dead body.

[robyn2839]

you cant take it it s there for fuel for when a fire starts, so it can endanger people,if you took it away how would the fire spread? that would be as silly as backburning in the colder months..bob

[TTIT]

............Also if the Dept of Forestry and the greenies have their way they will be trying to stop private land holders from taking timber off their own property but that will be over my dead body.I thought they could already do that down there. Heard about an old bloke in Macksville that was fined for cutting down a mango tree on his own property that he planted himself some 20 years earlier. Apparently you need permission to cut ANYTHING down around there :~ - one of the reasons I moved back to Queensland :;

[AUSSIE]

you cant take it it s there for fuel for when a fire starts, so it can endanger people,if you took it away how would the fire spread? that would be as silly as backburning in the colder months..bob
Looks like Bendigo is creating their own .Havent learnt yet up there

[Waldo]

No it's not legal.

But when I was a kid walking through rain forests back home in Qld all the way up to Cooktown, I'd have a knapsack and if we came across a fallen tree, from say a cyclone and it had an orchid that would clearly die, they'd come off and be put the bag. I've even got a couple down here now still alive many years later.

But what do you do, save a plant or leave a plant to die. Same thing applies here.

[Barry_White]

I thought they could already do that down there. Heard about an old bloke in Macksville that was fined for cutting down a mango tree on his own property that he planted himself some 20 years earlier. Apparently you need permission to cut ANYTHING down around there :~ - one of the reasons I moved back to Queensland :;

Yes well that is certainly the case as far as councils are concerned in towns, villages urban rural blocks but I am talking about on rural properties and they have already put restrictions on farmers on the amount of land they can clear.

When I first moved up here 30 years ago I could see the highway and the cars traveling on it about 10 kilometres away now I can't see the fence at the end of the paddock because of the regrowth. A lot of those trees have grown to the height of 30 feet and higher in that time, In fact I have two Red Gums just outside my house yard that have grown to over that height that were 3 feet high saplings just 10 years.ago.

[robyn2839]

when i lived in tamworth, we went down to sydney to do a renovation on this old house that a tamworth guy had bought , he had to pay a $3500 bond to prune a gum tree at the back of the block..bob

[robutacion]

Hi everyone,

Gees...! is something about theses issues, that ain't right...! Of course there needs to be "some" regulations on cutting trees indiscriminately but, certain regulations irregardless in what State they apply, are just simply ridiculous, I should know, I had a few "brush strokes" with these laws a few too many times. I've been to Court a few times on these issues, never charged or stopped to finish what I've started so, I should be doing something right...!
I defend my free right to cut timbers, with the as much vigor and determination of those trying to stop me.

In my view, is a big contradiction in between protecting our vegetation the habitats and wildlife, and at the same time allowing excessive and unnecessary fuel to accumulate pretty much everywhere, running the big risk of minimum or any control in the case of a fire (natural or not), loosing for ever the very same thing, they were trying to protect in the first place, irony?
probably, never the less, a sad reality.

Is impossible to discuss these matters and not thinking about the recent and ongoing events in Victoria bush-fires, my thoughts are with all of those that live in the affected areas, lost family, friends, pets, animals and property.

Lets hope that some lessons can be learn from this tragedy, and a better understanding between, nature, vegetation, wildlife, protection, prevention, human and nature "needs" specially, are learn as a result...!

Cheers:2tsup:
RBTCO

[rodm]

My take on it is National Parks are protected areas for the preservation of landscapes and species. Personally I think they should be left alone as trees and fallen limbs provide habitats for flora and fauna. Where is the line drawn in the sand between collecting a few turning blanks and wholesale commercial exploitation?

Sure take all you want on privare property but leave the parks for all to enjoy.
Using the Victorian fires as a reason to harvest timber in National Parks for fuel reduction might seem fitting at the moment but there are far more effective means of doing this. I am sure all this will be reviewed.

I am a practical greenie and not a fanatic.

[NeilS]

My take on it is National Parks are protected areas for the preservation of landscapes and species. Personally I think they should be left alone as trees and fallen limbs provide habitats for flora and fauna. Where is the line drawn in the sand between collecting a few turning blanks and wholesale commercial exploitation?

Sure take all you want on private property but leave the parks for all to enjoy.
Using the Victorian fires as a reason to harvest timber in National Parks for fuel reduction might seem fitting at the moment but there are far more effective means of doing this. I am sure all this will be reviewed.

I am a practical greenie and not a fanatic.

As a fully committed greenie (call me a fanatic if it eases anyone's angst), I'm with Rod. Let's leave the fallen limbs in Parks and Reserves as habitat for our fauna.

This is not the place to debate fuel reduction in relation to bushfires, so I won't go there, other than to say removing wood from forests will not reduce the intensity of bushfires. It's the leaf and twig load that creates the bulk of the fuel load for high intensity fires. Yes, logs will burn for days after the fire front has passed but contribute very little to the overall speed and intensity of the fire.


Ok then looks like i'll be going to the timber yard for my turning.


Timber Stacker - no need to do that. Just start asking around your friends and family and you will be surprised how much and how willing they will be to give you what they have. It will start as a trickle and eventually develop into a deluge. Storage is more of a problem for most of us than getting enough wood to turn.

Besides most timber yards don't have very suitable wood for turning.

The Working with Wood Shows (http://www.workingwithwood.com.au/) are one source of suitable blanks if the trickle hasn't grown into a torrent that keeps ahead of your production rate. Specialist woodturning suppliers are another good source if you have to buy your blanks. Start with the sponsors of our forums.

Neil

[Allan at Wallan]

Being born and bred in a forest town, (Powelltown Vic), I have
many mixed feelings as fire has always been a constant
threat. A history of fires from the 1920s, 1939, 1983 have
burned out all or parts of the town and involved loss of life.

I now live in Wallan which, like many other towns around here,
have been subjected to fires. Take a drive on the roads from
Wallan to Seymour or Wallan to Bendigo and see the debris
on the roadside which is probably attractive to firebugs. A
firebug has been around this area for years creating havoc from
Tallarook to Wandong and Wallan and is yet to be caught.

I know the tree huggers will condemn me for this but I suggest
that local authorities give us a permit free to collect firewood
during selected months. This could be Oct/Nov and Mar/Apr
each year. I would be happy to clear the roadside of fallen
branches and trees and know that I am assisting firefighters
in some small way. In addition our landscape would be far
neater.

Message to greenies: I love the forests, I love the animals,
I go back to Powelltown in March each year for a reunion
where I always go into the hills and smell the eucalypt.

I dislike the smell of burned forests, the smell of rotting
animals following a fire, the general destruction of homes
and possessions and the hardship of it all.

It is time commonsense prevailed - authorities should recognize
that we need to clean up our act. I am sick and tired of
hearing the same old stories of "we can learn from this" and
"we will take positive steps to ensure this does not happen again".

Allan

[rotten_66]

I thought they could already do that down there. Heard about an old bloke in Macksville that was fined for cutting down a mango tree on his own property that he planted himself some 20 years earlier. Apparently you need permission to cut ANYTHING down around there :~ - one of the reasons I moved back to Queensland :;

When putting in my new garage the council had google earth photos and asked lots of questions about siting of the driveway and crossover and the impact of these activities on the trees, (Note: This is in suburbia), to which I pointed out "My garden, My trees that I have planted, nothing relevant to nature strip or native trees."
Council Dragon:Oh no any tree over 10ft/3m need an inspection ($$) and probably need a council permit ($$) and a replacement plan before you can do anything. And a final inspection ($$)
Me: But what if I was doing a garden reno/makeover I wouldn't have even bothered checking with council.
Council Dragon: Well you would have got a fine then.
Me: (Thinking on ones feet) OK, then no trees over 10ft/3m (Was actually 3 in that category, 2 that we tried to relocate. 1 still going and doing well, 1 dead and 1 that was going anyway)
Council Dragon: No worries, Next please

Bureaucracy...

[rodm]

Allan,
The <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<img src=" /><st1:PersonName>pro</st1:PersonName>blem I see is degrees. If you allow collection of a trailer load then why can't the bloke with a loader and truck remove the same material plus a few dozen stags that were going to fall anyway? Greed comes to play first by the collectors and then the agency responsible for the care of that land. Those agencies are generally cash strapped so they will seize an opportunity if it is perceived to be acceptable. What starts out as a practical solution can end up being something else.

Everybody is not community minded and it is these types that stuff it for everyone else.

I agree with you about the spin the authorities put on everything these days. Media, advertising and government need to stop the glossy words that hide the truth.

[jmk89]

One way that his issue can be balanced is by having the collection done by the relevant responsible agency (the Roads department or the Parks people) - clearing of the fuel loading from roadsides and parks is important. To the extent that they remove fallen timber as part of that (or create timber from their other activities such as tree lopping) I think that the proper thing should be that it be made available for the public to take from the people doing the work or, when they remove the remaining (which they should have to do), from a specified collection point (ie green waste tip).

Councils should not just chip timber (which they seem to do regularly) but a right for the public to take timber would be likely to be abused.

[Vernonv]

Sorry, but using "bushfire fuel reduction" as a reason to remove timber doesn't really stack up.

The trouble is that the timber (the size worth taking) is not the main fuel for a bushfire - it's the leaf litter, small twigs, dry grass etc.

So taking a small amount of timber from the bush is unlikely to make any difference to the available fuel when a bushfire breaks out. I think the only way to effectively control bushfire fuel is to do a controlled burn.

[rodm]

Good approach Jeremy and agree with you on the chipping. The energy consumed to convert everything to chips is something we can do without.

Controlled burns opens up a whole new bag of worms. The opposition to controlled burns is strong for environmetal and smoke pollution reasons - perhaps that will change for a while but lessons learnt are soon forgotten. Fire moziacs are proving to be a very effective tool and provide refuge for wildlife but you still have to convince the public on this one. The media will hype about smoke pollution as soon as there is a hint of it.

[robutacion]

Hi there,

I found ludicrous the way some people call themselves "greenies" and feel so proud of it, please take no offense people, but couldn't you find a much better and appropriate "tag" for your interest in protecting the nature? One of the impossible problems with discussing these issues are the "extremes" people take in both directions. I always preferred the middle ground, where I find that most of the answers for the problems can be found.
For most of us with views of nature preservation in non private land (just as a example), where a chainsaw is a must, together with specific limited license and a clear knowledge of what should be taken away to preserve and secure the future of what is left behind.
I tottaly agree that allowing every "dick & harry" to access those places, would be a big mistake, humans are generally greedy and will stop at nothing to take advantage of an opportunity, if that worth money.
I can understand why so many people are a little confused on what category they belong, as I know they feel something needs to be done but, are still unsure what and/or how...! The answer is in a little common sense!

I don't particularly like the term "greenie" as to me, takes me straight to the "tree huggers" or the "tree monkeys" as they are also known for. Interestingly, in a conversation that I had with one of these guys some years back, this person had no idea what nature and trees preservation meant, as far as he was concern, he knew how to use the climbing gear (ropes) and to him was an unique opportunity to have his 15 seconds fame, and appear on TV.

This is only one example of many I experience in my life as a "forest timber man", as I'm pretty certain that many other people with common views, have also a few tales to tell. I have no intent of offending anyone, even tough I'm entitle to have my opinions, right or wrong. Talking from experience, gives one a better perspective of the realities, an those realities are found easily when people decide to be reasonable and look into the middle ground of the issue and to the balance of all living things!

On a happy note, I've been recently appointed as a "natural guardian" of the 12 year old pine forest, here in town. I'm glad that some people do still listen to reason, this small forest has been a 3 year of constant battle to keep it alive, just because those responsible din't care! This particular forest has become an extreme fire hazard (branches dragging on the ground) and the trees are just "gasping" for some air, due to the lack of trimming, allowing the air the circulate in between them. This is not a new thing for me, indeed, I've been in the passed given the same responsibility in forests hundreds of times bigger then this one. I'm glad that this one is only 35 hectares!

Issues like these require lots of planning, preparation and common sense, execution of the results need to be done by selected people with a good understanding of the job at hand. Not easy but not impossible...!

Cheers:2tsup:
RBTCO

[Ron Dunn]

jmk89, that is a pretty good suggestion ... have an authority do any necessary clearing work, including timber removal, then make that timber available for sale to the public to recover its management cost.

That would pretty soon sort out whether the "natural guardians" are genuinely interested in forest management, or just out for free timber.

[robutacion]

jmk89, that is a pretty good suggestion ... have an authority do any necessary clearing work, including timber removal, then make that timber available for sale to the public to recover its management cost.

That would pretty soon sort out whether the "natural guardians" are genuinely interested in forest management, or just out for free timber.

Hi Ron,
I also agree with jmk89 on his suggestion, if the process is self supporting (financially) and products needed removal become available for public tender/auction under specific guidelines, then illegal cutting or removing of timbers from those locations, would become extremely difficult to get away with.

I'm not sure Ron, what being nominated as a "natural guardian" means to you but one of the conditions is that you can not have a commercial interest with the forest. You have the owner, you have the forest authorities, you have the property manager, and you have the trees/plantation natural guardian. The responsibility of the trees natural guardian, is to make sure roads access are always usable, the fire brakes and fire tracks are done on time and complying with regulations, excessive fuel on the trees and on the ground is cleared out, broken, diseased and weaker trees are removed, regular inspections of possible tree infections, its causes and samples to be provide to the authorities for testing, and report of any other abnormality present.

This is a non paid job, and normally only necessary when the owner, the farm manager and anyone else on it, does have no interest of the trees (plantation) or any knowledge of what to do. Trees were planted by the original property owner 12 years ago, and unfortunately he soon after died of cancer, his family did sold the property immediately to a Chinese group of vegetable growers, and as far as I found out, 8 new Chinese vegetable growers groups have own and manage the place since, with another sale expected in May this year. The trees mean nothing to any of them, nor they like to talk about it so, after being involve with this farm for the last 3 years, I had t make a choice. Either ignore the most needed attention that plantation requires, or do the work yourself at your own time and costs. I was allowed to use one of the farm tractors to built the fire brakes (non existent since it was planted) just before we had that heat wave, clear some tracks and allow easy access to the area in case of troubles but, I had to pay for the diesel used about $300 of it in 2 weeks. Now I need to cut all the outside tree line, as they have grown heavy branches from the ground up. The branches are just too thick and close together, creating a barrier for the air to flow through. These outside tree were suppose to have been havelly trimmed 5 or 6 years ago, now the timber is so full of big knots all the way, that the timber can only be used for posts, reducing dramatically is value. I will be cutting those outside trees a soon as the weather cools down a bit but, I have no right to the logs which will be cut according to the buyers specifications, the owner will get the cheque. Apart from having to clean the mess, (branches, etc), I can keep any off cuts of anything over 10" which they don't want and consider wast for being too thick for posts so, a large number of these outside trees will give the first 3 to 5 feet from the butt as waste for them but not for me...!

So, how much are those off-cuts going to end-up costing me?, well make the sums and you will come to the conclusion that I could go to the mill and buy logs much cheaper than them. But that is not important to me, I know by looking after these trees, they will grow safer, taller and produce much better timber quality when they reach full maturity at about 30 years. Off-course, they will have a couple of good "hair-cuts" before that!
I don't know for how long I'm going to be able to look after them so, every day I see and I smell them, is a bonus and a good day!

Cheers:2tsup:
RBTCO

[NeilS]

Sorry, but using "bushfire fuel reduction" as a reason to remove timber doesn't really stack up.

The trouble is that the timber (the size worth taking) is not the main fuel for a bushfire - it's the leaf litter, small twigs, dry grass etc.

So taking a small amount of timber from the bush is unlikely to make any difference to the available fuel when a bushfire breaks out. I think the only way to effectively control bushfire fuel is to do a controlled burn.

:iagree:.... with Vernon.

Research by our CSIRO shows that, under the same weather conditions (in Victoria), it's the 'litter load' that determines bushfire intensity.

Abstract: http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/119482307/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

Note - the numeral '1' in the fuel weight index numbers should read 't' for tonne.

Controlled mosaic burning (approx every 10-15 yrs, depending on ecology) is the best way to maintain litter fuel loads at safe levels. Whereas removing timber from the bush and roadsides will make little difference to bushfire intensity.

Neil

[RETIRED]

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Link does not work Neil.

[damian]

I thought they could already do that down there. Heard about an old bloke in Macksville that was fined for cutting down a mango tree on his own property that he planted himself some 20 years earlier. Apparently you need permission to cut ANYTHING down around there :~ - one of the reasons I moved back to Queensland :;

I live at Mt Crosby and technically I need a council permission to mow. I have 3 of these flamin greenie protection things on my blocks. Any undergrowth, any tree native or exotic, even the declared weeds are included. If you read the council bylaw I need to apply to do anything in my yard apart from mowing areas which I can demonstrate have been mowed regularly over the years. So don't think your safe from the idiots in Queensland.

I was in sidinee in 93 with my read hat on, buggered my knees and lost most of my hair fighting those things. Only a month before I was walking into work and thinking to myself if I dropped a match the whole thing would go up like a bomb. I've seen a firestorm first hand and I'll tell you for nothing winter burn offs are absolutely necessary in Australia and they would be singing a different tune if these greenie twerps were held responsible for the damage and hurt their BS imposes on people.

It always amazes me these enviromental evangelists almost invariably live in the inner city as far from the nature they claim to "love" as they can get. They'd soon change their minds if they lived in the proper bush for 12 months.

[NeilS]

Link does not work Neil.

Apologies!

Here it is again:

'Bushfire incidence, fire hazard and fuel reduction burning'

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/119482307/abstract

The link seems to be working OK this time, at least in preview mode ... :-

Neil

[rsser]

I don't think anything could have stopped this last one.

I do think we can do better with building codes that assume ember attack will happen.

But I second Neil's point and would add the suggestion that if you need wood there's plenty for the taking around urban and regional centres. Contact your local arborist; join a local club; let other woodworkers know that you're looking for wood. Over time the wood will start coming to you. Usually in quantities bigger than you want, but with a network of turners you get into the swap game.

[Sawdust Maker]

Does this all mean I can't take my husky with me when I go for a walk :doh:
damn

[Gra]

Does this all mean I can't take my husky with me when I go for a walk :doh:
damn

Depends, does it have four legs?:D:D

[Sawdust Maker]

No, but it's orange :D and growls (sort of) :D

[Willy Nelson]

Evening all
I believe you can remove items from the forest floor with the right paperwork and a little research.
I used to live in Victoria, and for a very minor sum, we could purchase a firewood licence and gather firewood from the side of the road in certain areas, or in some forested areas. I used to ring up the local shire if there was a tree down that was worthwhile, seek permission to chop it up or remove wood and generally the answer would be YES, it saves us!!
Same in Sydney, where even the National Parks people (after a storm in Botany Bay) were paying contractors to take the fallen trees to the rubbish tip!!
Now in WA, well that's a different story, I can't tell you what happens here-Secret Sandgroper Business!!
Cheers
Willy (in Jarrahland)