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ElizaLeahy
22nd February 2009, 12:31 PM
However you spell it. The two part glue stuff. Is it ok for segmenting?

Ed Reiss
22nd February 2009, 01:40 PM
use Titebond II....great glue!!!:U

hughie
22nd February 2009, 01:41 PM
Absolutely, but you might want to try a less expensive glue such as PVA type available from Bunnies. Selleys water proof variety is one of several available there

SawDustSniffer
22nd February 2009, 01:43 PM
a bit expensive for my liking , there's a" Megapoxy no 69 "that's clear and cheap
it comes in 1kg and 4kg (twin pots ) and has a working time of about an hour , cure time 24hours ,most of my gear is glue together with it, its available from construction type hardware ( not bunnings or miter 10 )its used to glue steel bars into concrete ,the normal megapoxy is grey so make sure its got "69 clear" on the label
will have some trouble with sticking polished oily timber together so keep the sanding down to 120 before gluing

disclaimer : in no way am i saying don't use araldite ,just mentioning a different product i prefer to use

bowl-basher
22nd February 2009, 08:38 PM
use Titebond II....great glue!!!:U

:2tsup::2tsup::2tsup:
I'll second that worth the bit extra it costs but it is so good to use on segments you won't have to clamp just rub with a film of glut to get an all ove even coat and leave them
Bowl Basher

Skew ChiDAMN!!
22nd February 2009, 08:49 PM
Titebond III :2tsup:

Araldite works well, but is expensive. If you want to use it, don't bother with the quickset stuff (5- or 15-min) stuff, but go for the old style 24-hour lot.

It gives a stronger bond and a longer working time... and the latter can make life a LOT easier. :wink:

powderpost
22nd February 2009, 09:30 PM
Eliza,
I have been known to to a bit of segmenting :). Araldite is a very strong glue, but in my opinion, is not really suited to segmenting. I have used titebond 11 and find it good. I use mostly selleys "tradesman choice". It is a cross linked and polyaliphatic adhesive. Rubbed joints as mentioned before can be done with almost any glue. Tradesman choice sets as quickly as titebond 11, sands as well also, both are water resistant, but the Selleys product is cheaper. And by the way I have no pecunary interest in the product.
Jim

Grumpy John
23rd February 2009, 08:04 AM
.......... Titebond III :2tsup: ..........




I haven't done any segmenting (yet), but I have, on occasion glued several scrap pieces together to give useable blanks for practice in spindle turning. I have been using "Selleys Aquadhere Durabond" and was wondering how it compares to Titebond III?

soundman
23rd February 2009, 09:23 AM
Araldite is fine & beaut, but is nowhere near as good as the mopdern marine epoxies such as west system, boat coat and system 3.
All the above come as part a and part b, but you then have the options of using a filler to bulk out the resins to achieve the required viscosity.
They also penetrate into the grain of the timber better.

Remember the marine epoxies are formulated with timber as their first priority.

The glue bond of the above glues on timber is exceptional and the bond strength is far greater than that of the timber.

The above are harder crisper and higher temperature tolerant epoxies.

araldate softens aboce 60C

you do have to mix accurately.....either by using their pump systems or suringes for small quantities.

If you don't want to fiddle about with the resin, look at techniglue, it is a simple two pack pree filled epoxy ( similar to araldate) but is a later generation high performance epoxy, and available in larger commercial packs.

It is very common to be warned about using standard PVA for laminated turnings because it remains soft after cure and can therfore creep or flex within the glue line and fail. it too has temperature issues.

I would strongly recomend against segmented or laminated turnings using standard PVA if you were contemplating anything with thin wall thickness or structrual issues

remember there is a very real risk that it could all blow up in your face.

The problem with the PVA alaphalactic resin glues ( yellow PVA) is that the glue line isnt clear, bepending on the brand it can be anything from brown to bright yellow.
Likewise with some of the other alternatives.

The modern marine epoxies dry crystal clear ( dependent on filler) where as most of the prepacked tube epoxies have some sort of opacity or colour taint they also go milky with age.

remember the water based glues can also make tannins blead and some timbers to dis colour.
This could ruin the effect between adjacent coloured segments.

Epoxy of some sort has to be the glue of choice for segmentation and lamination.

If you are doing any sort of amount of it you will be better off going for one of the commercilay packaged products not the retail packed tubes.

Buying a 1 litre and hardner pack of marine epoxy and a bag of filler will hit your purse heavily, but quantity for quantity it is massivly cheaper than buying retail product in tubes.

cheers

powderpost
23rd February 2009, 11:03 AM
The original question was made in reference to segmenting. Two pack adhesives are not suitable for segmenting, been there, tried that. The problem is the working time and time taken to get the segments set in the right place. I used to use standard pva adhesives, but changed to a polyaliphatic pva for two reasons,
1. Standard pva (aquadhere) does not set hard and will raise tiny ridges at the joints as the timber moves.
2. Aliphatic pva sets harder and sand much better than standard pva.
As far as jobs exploding, that is problem of application. Poor joints are responsible for more failures than the adhesive. As mentioned before, I used standard pva for years without a glued joint failure.

However, two pack adhesives are quite satisfactory for laminating. Laminating, I interpret as joining a number of thin boards to make up a square for spindle turning, eg. a table leg.

As for tanin staining, it in reality is not as bad or as frequent that many people think. There is a far greater problem caused by perspiration in hot weather.
Jim

soundman
23rd February 2009, 11:36 AM
I thing the statement, "two pack adhesives are not suitable for segmenting", is not at all true.

It can not be true because it is used in industry for both lamination and segmenting every day, and thousands of turners worldwide use it for segmented turning.

I have used west system very sucessfully and have absulotly no problem getting the segemnts to stay where they are suposed to.

it is all about how you go about clamping if at all.

Rubbed joints in epoxy are quite sucessfull, in fact the preformance of rubbed joints in epoxy is a long way better that almost any other glue.

Particualry when you use the marine epoxies where you can manipulate both the viscosity and open time by controlling filler and selecting hardner.


I do agree that fit quality is very important....however epoxy is far more tolerant of marginal fits that almost any other glue.

Gaps filled with (good) epoxy will be stronger than the surrounding timber unless the epoxy has been excessivly filled with a weak filler.


When you come to the greasy timbers, epoxy will out perform almost any other glue.
There are a variety of australian and exotic timbers that perform very badly with PVA (all varieties) and other water borne glues.

As far as tannin staining, it realy depends on the timbers you are working with.
In kwila I have seen glue lines turn black and glue squeese out leave black / darkened blotches either side of the glue line and quite deep.

I sugest if you are having problems with segmenting with epoxy it is due to the glue up procedure.

cheers

powderpost
23rd February 2009, 01:10 PM
Make all the suggestions and think what you like. My comments are based on many years experience using adhesives from when hot water glue and casein adhesives were commonly used.
Again I refer back to the original question, "Is araldite suitable for segmenting".
Short answer... it will do the job. That "thousands of turners use it worldwide" is irrelevant. I really don't care what others use. I have early segmented work (about 15 years old and in the tropics), yes there was beading on the glue line. That was removed and repolished with no further problems.
I had a black bean (a greasy timber) table glued up with traditional araldite. It fell apart. There is a better AV adhesive for "greasy" timbers.
I go back to my original statement" Two packs are not suitable for segmenting" not, "do not use them". Of course epoxies are stronger, my problem is mixing and pot life, does not suit me, it may suit others.
Any way it does not really matter, it comes down to personal preference.

What does matter is go forth and enjoy wood workong... :)
Jim

SawDustSniffer
23rd February 2009, 02:07 PM
Ive used the "west systems" 2 pack and it works well ,(107) i think it was , very runny and had to add white balls to the mix to get any body in the glue
it does penetrate the timber well
But the cost , wow , is it gold plated ? CA would be cheaper

the "megapoxy no 69" 2 pack is nice and thick , like toothpaste (good gap filling ability), its not quite clear (very opaque) but cheep , at AU$35 for a Lt its cheaper than polyurethane glues , mix and apply it with a spatula , as a hydrepoxy i believe you can thin it down with water ,but i have never tried it ( it must weaken the bond)

so i think what we have to do is name a glue , its good points , its bad points and cost

CA ,
good points , stronger than timber , quick drying , very clear
bad points , Fumes , sort shelf life , expensive , no gap filling ability
cost , 3g tubes @AU$ 1 , = AU$330 per lt

Megapoxy 69
good points , gap filling ability , 1 hour work time , 24 hour cure , no shrinkage ,long shelf life
bad point ,not clear (opaque), 2pac chemicals ,slow drying
cost , 2parts 500m1 , AU$35