A new way to dry timber????

[Grumpy John]

While using hot wax to seal the ends of some green timber today I noticed the wax bubbling and foaming. I theorised (notice I didn't say assumed) that as the wax was at ~170 Deg. C the moisture in the wood was being "boiled out". O.K. here comes a brilliant idea, what if I totally submerged a piece of timber in the hot wax. Grabbing a piece of said timber I placed it in the wax and waited for the wax to stop bubbling and foaming.............. waiting.............waiting..........................................................................................................waiting. 2 1/2 hours later the wax is still bubbling but only a little bit so I remove the timber.

O.K. boys & girls, question time,
1. will the timber be dry/drier?
2. will the wax have impregnated the timber?
3. will the timber have checked/cracked?
4. was I wasting my time and electricity?

I don't know the answers to 1 or 2 yet, 3 yes the timber checked. but only slightly. Number 4. I'll answer this by asking another question, how many stubbies can YOU drink in 2 1/2 hours with nothing to do but watch wax boil?

I should have an answer to question 1 on the weekend when I hope to have access to a moisture meter, will post the results.

[watson]

I'll answer this by asking another question, how many stubbies can YOU drink in 2 1/2 hours with nothing to do but watch wax boil?
.

Slab

[BobL]

When wood dries, to stop it cracking, it needs time to allow the cellular structure to shrink in proportion the volume of water lost. If the volume of water is removed at a faster rate than the cellular structure can shrink this is what causes cracking. If this could be done in two hours you can bet kiln operators would have done this by now. The difference with your method is that (at least some of) the molten wax is replacing (some of) the water so the cells don't need to shrink as much. The fact that you got some cracks suggests the volume of water removed was greater than the volume of wax that went into the wood. Organic materials like Waxes penetrate wood very slowly unless a high pressure is used. This is illustrated by the dewatering process used for the Mary Rose which will be held in a mist of ethylene glycol for some 20 years before they deem enough of the water to have been replaced by the EG.

My guess is the wax penetrates inverse exponentially for a certain distance and eventually builds up such a barrier that it prevents any more water escaping and any more wax from entering. Heat cycling may improve the extent of the penetration but I doubt it will make a big differentce. Once the outside of a really big piece of wood is impregnated with wax, the wood inside will probably remain wet for many many years. This is the same as coating logs with endcheck (A waxy like material) - if you coat the whole of the outside it stays wet for years. The real question is then how big a piece of wood can be done using your method?

BTW the moisture content meters that rely on conductivity may not work correctly if the wood has been impregnated with wax - you can probably only get the true moisture content of the wax impregnated wood with an EM moisture meter.

if your wax has a low vapor pressure (ie low evaporation) at around 100ºC you could cut the wood up into cubes and place it in an oven at 100 and measure the weight down to constant weight before and after the process - this will be far more accurate that any meter.

This would be a very useful experiment to undertake!

[DJ’s Timber]

I'll answer this by asking another question, how many stubbies can YOU drink in 2 1/2 hours with nothing to do but watch wax boil?


Going by my recent foray back into drinking, A slab or 2 as watson says of VB stubbies or JB cans but then that is subjected on how warm or cold it is :doh:

[Grumpy John]

Going by my recent foray back into drinking, A slab or 2 as watson says of VB stubbies or JB cans but then that is subjected on how warm or cold it is :doh:

good to hear from you DJ, hope all is well.

Cheers
GJ

[steck]

Ever thought of throwing a bit of battered fish in with the wood? - Give you something to eat with those stubbies:roll:

[robutacion]

Yeah, I will follow this thread with some hope, I hope...!:U

I have a few blanks that need the wax treatment, instead of paint, so that the timber can be seen.

Where do you source your wax from? I need a fair quantity for a good price, off-course!:D My old electric fry-pan (now replaced) has been working for about 15 years, doing plenty of food cooking, last year I decided to retire it to the timber work shed for a change of career...!:o Wood cooking.:no:

Now, what about those that don't drink? looking at a fry-pan frying for 2 1/2, would be like watch grass grow, huh?

One day, just one day, we will find an easy and inexpensive way to dry timber, safely and quickly, and any tests/experimentations will help but, ain't thing that is it, sorry...!:-

Cheers:2tsup:
RBTCO

[SawDustSniffer]

wax impregnated blanks ,:2tsup: cool ,:2tsup: self polishing

[Ed Reiss]

...probably should have started with the stubbies before-hand, GJ:beer:

[ElizaLeahy]

wax impregnated blanks ,:2tsup: cool ,:2tsup: self polishing


That's what I was thinking!

Also "there ain't going to be any hair left on those blocks once he pulls all that wax off".

Then I realised I was just being silly.

[artme]

Not so silly Eliza. Might have been Hairy Oak!:D:D:D

[Manuka Jock]

Not so silly Eliza. Might have been Hairy Oak!:D:D:D

Or a Maidenhair Tree :U

[aak]

Hi GJ,

If your aim is to dry your timber, you could build a small kiln (25x50x50 inches) very cheaply from plywood with foil faced insulation heated with a 100-150Watt light globe. It would not be high-tec but it does the job. Musical instrument makers and some furniture makers have done so and use them successfully.

Regards
Andy

[TTIT]

..........................
O.K. boys & girls, question time,
1. will the timber be dry/drier?
2. will the wax have impregnated the timber?
3. will the timber have checked/cracked?
4. was I wasting my time and electricity?

Would have to agree with BobL on this one (even if he doesn't know what makes a good cuppa!:; ). From my experiments on Aussie Ebony, I reckon you'll find the wax has only gone in a short way and the blank will take about 4 times longer to dry fully.:shrug:

[Rookie]

....Where do you source your wax from? I need a fair quantity for a good price, off-course!:D My old electric fry-pan (now replaced) has been working for about 15 years, doing plenty of food cooking, last year I decided to retire it to the timber work shed for a change of career...!:o Wood cooking.:no:



I buy big blocks of wax from the cut price shops such as Priceline from the hair removal section. They have some at what I call "beauty product prices" but they also have fairly cheap blocks as well.

[Grumpy John]

Hi GJ,

If your aim is to dry your timber, you could build a small kiln (25x50x50 inches) very cheaply from plywood with foil faced insulation heated with a 100-150Watt light globe. It would not be high-tec but it does the job. Musical instrument makers and some furniture makers have done so and use them successfully.

Regards
Andy

Hi guys, the intent here was not necessarily to dry the timber but more of an experiment to see what would happen if the timber were left in the wax for an extended time. As indicated by question 4 and my answer to it, this thread is not to be taken too seriously, perhaps I should have included a "smiley" in the heading. However please keep the input coming, there can never be too much feedback. :2tsup:

[Grumpy John]

....................................
Where do you source your wax from? I need a fair quantity for a good price, off-course!:D
.....................................


I get my wax from here (http://www.australianwaxco.com.au/). I get second grade candle wax, which because of the addition of stearic acid makes it brittle and subject to cracking. I'll let you in on a little secret here, if you add 75 grams of vaseline to 5Kg of wax it'll soften it up just enough to stop it cracking.

[steck]

Hi John,
How much do you pay for your wax?

[Grumpy John]

Hi John,
How much do you pay for your wax?

From memory I think I paid $12.50 for a 5Kg slab of 2nd candle making wax.

[Robomanic]

I always though that the unfortunate thing with drying was that as the moisture leaves the end grain, the cell structure must collapse (for want of a better word) but of course there is still moisture further in preventing it from collapsing at the same rate, so the cracks begin. This allows some moisture to escape from the faces of the cracks, localised around each crack, causing them to deepen. Then the pattern repeats. Am I somewhere near it?

I always liked the idea of heating the wood and boiling the sap out, if not to remove it at least to harden it up and stabalise it. I guess that is what led a lot of people to spend a lot of money on microwave drying (with mixed success).

If nothing else I bit that first 1/2" cuts nicely GJ :)

[Grumpy John]

After a conversation with Calm this morning I think I'll sneak into the local Fish & Chip shop tonight and put their fryers to work drying some more timber :D.
Imagine what the Flake will taste like after 50Kg of Camphor Laurel has been through the vat :oo:.

[weisyboy]

what about putting it in hot oil?

oil would penetrate further.

or am i just talking jiberish.

[orraloon]

I have heard of rough turnings being fried in oil to speed up the drying. Bruce Leady mentioned that they had tried it back in the 70s before microwave drying came along. He said it did work but it made a bit of a mess when back on the lathe.
Regards
John

[BobL]

what about putting it in hot oil?

oil would penetrate further.

or am i just talking jiberish.

It would have to be hot and under high pressure.

[Grumpy John]

I get my wax from here (http://www.australianwaxco.com.au/). I get second grade candle wax, which because of the addition of stearic acid makes it brittle and subject to cracking. I'll let you in on a little secret here, if you add 75 grams of vaseline to 5Kg of wax it'll soften it up just enough to stop it cracking.

Was just re-reading this post and realised that you need 150 grams vaseline to 5 Kg. of wax :doh:, sorry for any probs. this may have caused.

[Grumpy John]

I have just checked the MC of the "wax boiled" blank with a moisture meter loaned to me by Calm (thanks mate) and it measures between 12% & 14%. Similar sized pieces from the same tree not subject to the same treatment start at 20% and go off the scale from there.
I am not advocating this method as a viable alternative to kiln drying, or in fact any other recognised drying technique. It was just one of those "what if" moments that sometimes occur in life :U.

[Robomanic]

Very interesting. Can you let us know how a finished piece comes up? I would like to see if the treatment affects the finish at all.

[Grumpy John]

Very interesting. Can you let us know how a finished piece comes up? I would like to see if the treatment affects the finish at all.

I'm planning to do just that Shannon. If not too many other jobs get in the way I should have some results by this Saturday arvo.

[dr4g0nfly]

I may have a scientific answer for you reference the use of wax to drive out moisture from wood.

If you are getting a boiling effect I would assume it's the same as adding water (wet French fries) to boiling oil, the wax floats, the water sinks and superheats, turning to steam and then rising up through the wax - the boiling effect. This continues until all the water is driven off, whether this means all the moisture is driven out of you timber I cannot say.

The other and similar method of driving out moisture by immersion is the use of PEG, Poly-ethylene glycol which replaces water in the woods pores stabilizing it against cracking. Especially useful in large blocks of green wood.

Now I don't know about your wax but PEG is food safe, non-flammable and easily cleanable from clothing.

[Grumpy John]

Shannon, I was able to turn a small bowl from the "wax dried" Liquid Amber this arvo. The timber obviously was still a bit damp, but there was noticeably less effort required in cutting. I don't know if this had anything to do with the wax treatment or LA is just an easy cutting timber (I've never turned LA before). After sanding to 320 I burnished the bowl with a handful of shavings at ~1200 RPM. Finish is a homemade mix of 2 parts boiled linseed, 2 parts turps and 1 part poly.

The cracks caused by the forced drying are quite obvious, don't know if the bowl will move much, I'll keep you posted.

[Robomanic]

Very interesting indeed. Pity about the cracks but hey, it's not too bad.