Rattrap 20th March 2009, 07:24 PM Hi all,
I just received my regular Woodsmith tips email & this time its about a sandpaper sharpening platform which was quite a topical subject for me as i have just been reading in 1 of my woodworking mags about waterstones & have been thinking its well past time i bought into a sharpening system for my chisels. Now this system looks just plain excellent to my novice eyes simply because of the low cost of sand paper as well as not ever needing to flatten my sharpening area i could instead just replace the sandpaper -woot! I've done a bit of a search here on the subject of sharpening & well frankly i wound up even more confused with all the different sharpening systems/methods etc.:doh:
How would this system compare to waterstones or other systems?
Also i'd like a few suggestions on honing guides that are semi idiot proof (see me pointing at myself)
At the moment i'm only looking to sharpen my chisels but i'm aiming to buy a couple of hand planes very soon. I bid on a Veritas & a Lee Valley on Ebay but missed out.
I'm not sure if i'm allowed to post the woodsmith tips email here but here it is in its entirety, please feel free to delete it or pm me & i'll do it if i am breaking any copyright laws etc
Content removed due to Copyright Laws
Link to Article on Woodsmithshop site HERE (http://www.woodworkforums.com/www.woodsmithshop.com/download/109/109-sandpapersharpen.pdf)
Edited by DJ's Timber
bsrlee 20th March 2009, 08:26 PM The real killer for that is the cost of the glass plate $$$$$
I picked up a made-in-China black 'stone' plate for my future scary-sharp experiments at ' The Reject Shop' a while back. They though it was a pastry rolling surface, poor fools.
It is optically flat on at least one side, which is as good as most glass these days, and probably exceeds my capacity to keep the blade straight anyway. :doh:
Rattrap 21st March 2009, 09:22 AM hmmm i hadn't taken the cost of the sheet of glass into consideration. I might do a hunt thru the local dumps etc. In fact come to think of it the neighbours have a big thick piece lieing in their backyard, i almost ran over in with my ride on mower when i was mowing their back yard.
I think it was laminated tho, would that make a diff?
artme 21st March 2009, 05:53 PM I picked up a piece of granite some years ago from a stone mas. It was a broken off piece from a large counter top. They cut it to size for me and from memory it set me back $10. Was for another purpose but would do for a sharpening plate.
Some of the really good glazed porcelain tiles would also be good. Could pick up discounted end of batch stuff.
Rattrap 21st March 2009, 08:35 PM They sound like good ideas artme.
In the Woodsmith tip they mention using from 80 grit up to 2000 grit sandpaper yet when using waterstones they talk about using 1000 grit then 6000 grit stones. Anyone got an idea about this discrepency in grits? Finding wet & dry sandpaper up to 2000 grit shouldn't much of a problem but up to 6000??? Not sure on that, never seen sandpaper with that high rating - is it necessary???
Its all clear as mud to me. :doh:
derekcohen 22nd March 2009, 08:35 PM Have you given thought to the time when you have to replace all those bits of sandpaper? :o
.... scraping, cleaning, cut paper, re-glue, use for 2 minutes, scraping, cleaning, cut paper, re-glue, use for 2 minutes, scraping, cleaning, cut paper, re-glue, use for 2 minutes .... :~
Sandpaper is very expensive, dirty and cumbersome after a while. Do the waterstones as you planned.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Rattrap 23rd March 2009, 09:25 AM You think the sandpaper will wear out that fast? When doing anything with sandpaper i always try to keep in mind, 'let the sandpaper do the work, less pressure'
mat 25th March 2009, 11:41 AM I have come around to using sandpaper for flattening backs of blades and waterstones for the bevel. Just takes too long to flatten a back on stones even with 300 grit waterstones.
Rattrap 25th March 2009, 02:07 PM makes sense. :2tsup:
Socrates 25th March 2009, 05:55 PM Have you given thought to the time when you have to replace all those bits of sandpaper? :o
.... scraping, cleaning, cut paper, re-glue, use for 2 minutes, scraping, cleaning, cut paper, re-glue, use for 2 minutes, scraping, cleaning, cut paper, re-glue, use for 2 minutes .... :~
Sandpaper is very expensive, dirty and cumbersome after a while. Do the waterstones as you planned.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Yeah, what he said. I got some damn fine results whan I was doing scary sharp, but it ended up being messy and not so cheap when you consider all the wet and dry you'll be buying. The king stones are $42.00 up to 6000 grit at Carba-Tec, they work for me.
Rattrap 25th March 2009, 06:22 PM What i'd like to understand is how 2000 grit is recomended for sandpaper while 6000 grit is normally recomended for waterstones????
mic-d 25th March 2009, 06:46 PM What i'd like to understand is how 2000 grit is recomended for sandpaper while 6000 grit is normally recomended for waterstones????
I think it's because they are apples and oranges, I mean the units of 'grit' are not equivalent. Sort of like (US)gallons and (Imperial)gallons. I don't stake my life on it though, just something I thought I remember reading:wink:
I vote for waterstones too.
Cheers
Michael
steveo_mcg 25th March 2009, 09:41 PM :exactly::whs:
This dude (https://home.comcast.net/%7Erexmill/sharpening/grit_sizes/Abrasive_grit_sizes.htm) has done the hard work, but basically the micron rating is probably the closest thing you can use to compare since grits vary depending on the product and region.
Though my understanding is that particle size is not the last word on how well a sharpening medium will work.
Rattrap 25th March 2009, 10:09 PM that makes alot more sense thanks.
$42 for a stone is a reasonable price. need at least 2 grits tho & a flattening stone & a honing guide....... damn this can be an expensive hobby. lol
GraemeCook 27th March 2009, 10:48 AM Have you given thought to the time when you have to replace all those bits of sandpaper? :o
.... scraping, cleaning, cut paper, re-glue, use for 2 minutes, scraping, cleaning, cut paper, re-glue, use for 2 minutes, scraping, cleaning, cut paper, re-glue, use for 2 minutes .... :~
Sandpaper is very expensive, dirty and cumbersome after a while. Do the waterstones as you planned.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Hi Rattrap
I posted a similar question a year or so ago and got some excellent advice, especially from Derek Cohen, so I feel a little guilty disagreeing with Derek now.
Whilst what Derek says is perfectly true, I do not think it is appropriate advice for a novice in that it fails to allow for learning curves. I had forty years of bad sharpening and then decided to do it properly. IMHO the scary sharp method is the easiest to learn; when you are confortable with it move on to another - diamond plates or wetstones.
Have a look at the postings in www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=69573&highlight=idiot+sharpening . It really helped me.
Also, buy a Veritas honing guide and their angle gauge. The guide is absolutely brilliant and essential for clumsy me.
Cheers
Graeme
derekcohen 27th March 2009, 04:13 PM Hey Graeme, no need for guilt. Sandpaper is a good medium tio learn on. It is just an expensive and frustrating system after a time.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Rattrap 28th March 2009, 10:15 AM Thanks Graeme, a very intersting read. I noticed that someone mentioned the wasp sander for sharpening, i have 1 of them but never even thought of using it for the job. I've followed the links to the wasp site with a tute on sharpening with the wasp, might be worth giving it a try.
The Veritas honeing guide looks very nice, i was looking at them on the carbi-tec web site yesterday - very tempting. I've re-read the article on waterstones & the more i read the more i think i'd like to go that way, just 'feels' right to me.
Sandpaper is a good medium to learn on. It is just an expensive and frustrating system after a time.
I can imagine that would be the case very quickly.
dr4g0nfly 1st April 2009, 08:15 AM I solved my requirement for a flat plate of glass by going to the dump and getting a couple of the glass doors from the inside of old cooking ranges.
It takes a little effort to get all the burnt on fat splatters but they are ground on the edge and tempered (and more particularly - cheep).
GraemeCook 1st April 2009, 05:10 PM I solved my requirement for a flat plate of glass by going to the dump and getting a couple of the glass doors from the inside of old cooking ranges.
It takes a little effort to get all the burnt on fat splatters but they are ground on the edge and tempered (and more particularly - cheep).
Interesting. How thick is the glass, Dragonfly?
Cheers
Graeme
dr4g0nfly 2nd April 2009, 05:57 AM Graeme,
The glass thickness varies a little, normally 5 or 6 mm thick. The size varies with the oven type, normally around 450mm x 500mm. It does have a couple of holes down one side though from the hinges, but they are grounds smooth as well.
Rattrap 2nd April 2009, 07:58 AM I found a couple of glass doors off a stereo cabnet that was my 18th birthday pressent that i had fogotten about - wow that was alot of years ago. lol
GraemeCook 2nd April 2009, 11:21 AM Graeme,
The glass thickness varies a little, normally 5 or 6 mm thick. The size varies with the oven type, normally around 450mm x 500mm. It does have a couple of holes down one side though from the hinges, but they are grounds smooth as well.
Thanks Dragonfly. Data for future retrieval.
Cheers
Graeme
derekcohen 2nd April 2009, 12:32 PM Keep in mind that glass flexes. Glue a thick MDF or (flat) tile underneath, and do not make the glass too long unless well supported.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Woodwould 2nd April 2009, 01:24 PM Old televisions used to have 3/8" or even 1/2" plate glass in front of the tube. They were good enough for grinding cylinder heads on. The trouble is getting a free one - the Toorak and Prahran yuppies collect those things now. :o
kman-oz 2nd April 2009, 03:34 PM Keep in mind that glass flexes. Glue a thick MDF or (flat) tile underneath, and do not make the glass too long unless well supported.
I made a lapping plate for lapping plane soles with an MFD base, you may find the MDF expands in wet weather making for a lovely concave surface :)
I was furtunate I'd only done about three strokes on a wooden plane before I realised something wasn't right. I wouldn't go this way. Personally I'd get a cheap bag of cement and make a nice little slab instead.
Bitslong 13th July 2009, 11:57 AM worth noting that thewoodworks sell a 'lapping' glass item $16 - ~40cm x 30cm:
http://www.thewoodworks.com.au/product/products/ACCESSORY/LAPPING+GLASS/A1901.html
I didn't know until I received mine that it comes as 2 sheets laminated to get the thickness (mine was 11mm thick, not the 8mm that was specified - the edges were not rounded or bevelled but rough looking)
I did see a marble slab for lapping being sold on one of the Aus online stores for a reasonable price but forgot which one. Haven't had any issues with my glass but I'd probably get the marble next time.
rsser 13th July 2009, 01:05 PM I'd suggest going longer and narrower than that and pref two sheets. Width half an abrasive sheet. Then you can stick a series of diff grits (on both sides with care) and work through them.
I agree with Derek; in the end you want to be woodworking so the quicker the sharpening the more you can do. But as noted, it's a good cheap way to learn and if you get hooked then you bite the bullet and get the stones or diamond plates or both, and then a polishing wheel and then etc etc.
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