Vicmarc tool rest issues

[jefferson]

I have some great pics but for some reason (probably idiot me) cannot load the damn things to show you.

But the problem is this (and agrees with me):

- the rest "bevel" won't allow you to decide on the cutting angle. That is, unless you set the rest height and bevel to coincide with the bevel on the chisel, you cannot gain support from the top of the rest. You ride low on the rest, not the top, and have less than optimum rest / fulcrum support.

ground down one of my rests to more of a round profile but it's still not ideal. From what I know, you need to start high with the bowl gouge (and thus have no "tip" rest support with the Vicmarc rests) and raise the tool handle closer to centre which is fine as you get the full support from the top of the rest.

Does all of this make sense? I hope so!

I am absolutely spewing that I cannot post the pics. DJ is trying to help, much appreciated.

I've seen other rests that seem to give more support from the top and are otherwise are of a better profile. Particularly if you want to use an underhand supporting grip. As always, any and all comments welcome.

This is one of the few gripes I've had with my Vicmarc lathes. At least they don't stop for no good reason, eh David?

Jeff

[Groggy]

Can't say that I've had the problem but I don't really follow what you are saying. I'll wait for the pics.

Mind you, Richard Raffan seems to get by ok, and he uses Vicmarcs exclusively AFAIK (he used to own mine).

[Calm]

I agree with the basis of your comment jeff - The STUBBY has a design fault that when you are doing big blanks the "base" of the toolrest (boss on banjo) gets in the road and stops you getting closer than about 2 cm to the work peice. Bad design feature that only shows up on larger peices.

As for stopping if i remember correctly i saw a post where someone who owns a "toy lathe" (VL300) kept bumping the red stop bar on the front - would that be right - if memory is correct it was a Lefty.

Cheers

[rsser]

Jeff, there are aftermarket rests out there but the wrinkle is that they're typically 1" or 25mm posts and yours is 30mm IIRC. The ones I'm thinking of are Woodfast and sold by Timbecon etc. They have a fairly wide slightly rounded top edge with a cove underneath which can be handy for running your finger along as a kind of depth gauge. The Stubby job is v. similar.

One option would be to buy a couple, decapitate the rests and get someone to weld the replacement to the VM shafts. Or to 30mm rod if you can get it.

[jefferson]

I agree with the basis of your comment jeff - The STUBBY has a design fault that when you are doing big blanks the "base" of the toolrest (boss on banjo) gets in the road and stops you getting closer than about 2 cm to the work peice. Bad design feature that only shows up on larger peices.

As for stopping if i remember correctly i saw a post where someone who owns a "toy lathe" (VL300) kept bumping the red stop bar on the front - would that be right - if memory is correct it was a Lefty.

Cheers

Wasn't me hitting the stop bar, it was .

I'll re-try the pics this morning to show what I'm talking about.

Jeff

[Cliff Rogers]

I have a Vicmarc VL300SBEVS & I haven't noticed any problem with the tool rest.

I have only ever bumped the stop bar about 3 times.

I look funny using a lathe without a stop bar 'cos eveytime I want to stop the lathe my leg twitches. :D

[Pat]

I look funny using a lathe without a stop bar 'cos eveytime I want to stop the lathe my leg twitches. :D

Cliff that's your normal look :q

[Calm]

went out and took some photos of what i mean.
the first couple show the way it was when i got it - you can see how the boss hits when you set it up to reach the centre of the blank and the adjusting screw nearly hits as well. the gap is about 1 1/2 cm but after a cut or two you have a larger than desirable gap[.

105446105447105448.

I moved the boss around on the adjusting screws and had to move the locking screw
to the other position, now it is right in front of the rest and intimidating when you are using the chisel on the rest.

105449 105450

Then i thought i better show you a couple of the best lathe made:D:D

105451105452

Cheers

[Tim the Timber Turner]

The STUBBY has a design fault that when you are doing big blanks the "base" of the toolrest (boss on banjo) gets in the road and stops you getting closer than about 2 cm to the work peice. Bad design feature that only shows up on larger peices.

Cheers[/QUOTE]

Then i thought i better show you a couple of the best lathe made.

[/QUOTE]

Bit of a contridiction there David??

Rose coloured glasses maybe??

Add to the list, a poorly located spindle lock.

Like most lathes there is always a compromise somewere.

Enjoy your stubby, There is always a Vicmarc to aspire to.

Cheers

Tim

[new_guy90]

I have some great pics but for some reason (probably idiot me) cannot load the damn things to show you.

But the problem is this (and agrees with me):

- the rest "bevel" won't allow you to decide on the cutting angle. That is, unless you set the rest height and bevel to coincide with the bevel on the chisel, you cannot gain support from the top of the rest. You ride low on the rest, not the top, and have less than optimum rest / fulcrum support.

ground down one of my rests to more of a round profile but it's still not ideal. From what I know, you need to start high with the bowl gouge (and thus have no "tip" rest support with the Vicmarc rests) and raise the tool handle closer to centre which is fine as you get the full support from the top of the rest.

Does all of this make sense? I hope so!

I am absolutely spewing that I cannot post the pics. DJ is trying to help, much appreciated.

I've seen other rests that seem to give more support from the top and are otherwise are of a better profile. Particularly if you want to use an underhand supporting grip. As always, any and all comments welcome.

This is one of the few gripes I've had with my Vicmarc lathes. At least they don't stop for no good reason, eh David?

Jeff

i have the same problem but my lathe is no where near as grand as a vicmarc so i think it could be expected. i mostly notice it while using my skew, none of the wear on the rest is at the tip and it does make a difference to the performance of the tool. didnt think of grinding back the rest but may do that now. thanks for brining this to light

[rsser]

To get back to Jeff's problem, seem to recall Skew posting about putting a rod on top but can't find it now (scratch head).

Here's a commercial version http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/store/Lathe_Accessories___Tool_Rests___Robust_Comfort_Tool_Rest___robust_tool_rest

though not available with a 30mm post. But as the VM rest is steel perhaps a bit of drill rod could be welded to the top. Just a thought.

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

I del'd it, 'cos I thought it wasn't really contributing to the thread. :shrug:

[Tim the Timber Turner]

I like the Woodfast toolrest for spindle work. The grove along the back is comfortable for your supporting hand. Also there is no post to negotiate either.

However like most things they are a compromise. When used on faceplate work I don’t like them.. Because there is no offset between the post and the toolrest I can’t get the rest close to the work on the inside of bowls and containers. This lack of offset is more noticeable on smaller diameters.

A good investment is to visit a steel merchant and purchase a short length
of “Bright Steel Shafting” to suit your toolrest holder. Bright Steel Shafting is sized accurately (I think its ground to size). Once you have this, it’s not too hard to make or get made any shape or length toolrest you require.

A toolrest is a rather personal piece of equipment; it’s a bit like having your own tools instead of having to use someone else’s tools.

Cheers

Tim :)

[rsser]

I del'd it, 'cos I thought it wasn't really contributing to the thread. :shrug:

Thanks Skew ... the scratching was getting down to soft matter :(

[jefferson]

Finally, here are the pics hopefully showing the problem. I hope they are not too small to pick it up:

105498

105499

105500

105501

I hope you can see that the bevel on the rest must match the bevel of the tool on the wood. If not, the tool sits on the back of the rest, not the top.

Is any of this clear?

Vicmarc owners - please check next time you turn the lathe on and tell me where the tool is sitting on the rest.

Jeff

[Groggy]

Jeff, raise the rest and only use the top of it. Keep the tool in contact with the top of the rest and pivot the tool until the bevel of the tool comes in contact with the wood.

The tool does not have to sit flat on the rest, if that is what you are suggesting.

[Groggy]

Please bear in mind I am a self taught novice turner, but this is how I do it. It seems to work for me. Sorry for the phone pics, thoughtless son is using his camera :rolleyes: :wink:
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_-LWpBUYGKV4/Sg_4Tpo4tJI/AAAAAAAAAVI/simmWckq5z4/s512/17052009%28001%29.jpg
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_-LWpBUYGKV4/Sg_4XZekDBI/AAAAAAAAAVM/byZh18s1-Rg/s512/17052009%28002%29.jpg
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_-LWpBUYGKV4/Sg_4ZaViVbI/AAAAAAAAAVQ/VY12l17k54c/s512/17052009%28003%29.jpg

[Groggy]

I meant to mention, your pics show a 'catch' waiting to happen as the tool is pivoting too far back.

[jefferson]

Groggy, your pics show exactly what the problem is.

Raising the rest as you show certainly lets you gain top-of-the-rest tool support, but you are far too high as I see it. I may be wrong, but if you cut that way, you are almost (if not) sheer scraping, not cutting. The angle of approach for the wood to the tool must be lower if you are to get a nice cut. High approach angles may well work for spindle work, given there is no end grain to deal with. But not for bowl work.

So help me guys! Skew? Ern? Calm? Where are you?

Now "abused" me for days for my tool rest work, until he finally concluded the rest bevel angle wasn't right. And is mooching somewhere, on the road home, honey-mooning an anniversay (congrats and Julie).

Talk to me guys and please try to educate me and (maybe others).

Jeff

[Groggy]

The pic was taken in that position to show the bevel presenting to the timber. In Raffan's books he shows a similar approach except the tool is somewhat angled to the rest (not at 90 deg like my pic) and rolled over about 30 degrees. His rests appear to be marginally lower than center.

I'll sit out now and see what the experts have to say.

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

I'm sorry I deleted my original reply now. :doh:

My favourite rest has a small dia. steel rod, I'd guess 4 or 5mm, braized across the top.

This has the effect of making that back bevel much steeper.

[DJ’s Timber]

I can undelete it if you like Skew :;

[jefferson]

Groggy, I'll sit back too.

My Mike Darlow DVD goes into some detail (way too much for me) about the angle of approach of the wood to the tool. Sub-surface damage, macro / micro surfaces ..... all too technical for me! But some of it sank in and IMHO think that you need to be cutting as low as you can.

I roll the gouge over as you (I think quite rightly) suggest - otherwise, you would only be cutting on the tip. But the problem remains. If I want to cut with the tool rest high (not ideal), the Vicmarc rests provide full support, but not otherwise.

I've reloaded my pics with higher definition. The first one shows the tool high and off the rest, the second with both bevels rubbing and preferably lower. But the rest should not dictate the angle I choose!

105514

105515

What I try to do with both spindle and bowl work is to follow the so-called golden rules:

- tool on the rest first
- rub the bevel
- lift the tool to begin the cut
- change the cutting angle to get the optimum 45 degree angle

This may mean raising or lowering the rest, depending on the tool eg. raising the rest as you part a large cylinder. But if you are trying to cut at the Mike Darlow approved approach angle, it should not be high.

Ouch. I can feel the barbs coming already! Here to learn though so fire away.

Jeff

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

I can undelete it if you like Skew :;

Nar. I've already repeated the gist of it, only without quite so much waffle. :U

[jefferson]

Sorry Skew for waffling so much. I just had so many problems with the pics that it's taken a couple of days to bring the issue to light.

I'll take to task when I see him. He was supposed to discuss the matter with others higher up the food chain.....

Jeff

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

:rotfl:

No need to apologise Jefferson, I meant I trimmed off all of my waffle. :U:B

[La truciolara]

Please bear in mind I am a self taught novice turner, but this is how I do it. It seems to work for me. Sorry for the phone pics, thoughtless son is using his camera :rolleyes: :wink:...
Groggy, quite a good explanation with your pictures.
I must say that is exactly the technique I have been and stell am teaching to beginners.
I am convinced than to avoid catches this is quite a suitable way to ensure a safe progression of the movement until you finally have the bevel on the wood prior to start to produce nice shavings and a nice finish at the same time.

[rsser]

I don't do much spindle work but was taught to have the top of the rest about a thumb's thickness above the centre height for gouge and skew work. That would solve your problem I imagine Jeff.

You say this would be too high. Yes it would for scraping, but for cutting wouldn't the geometry stay the same and the arm/hand/tool just come up a bit?

Some turners learn and get used to a partic tool height and may not like a higher presentation but that's not to say it won't work.

[rsser]

Hmm, I'm still trying to make sense of the problem.

The rest 'bevel' shouldn't determine the presentation but looking at your pic perhaps at those angles you get some rocking between the two edges on the rest.

What's the bevel angle on that gouge Jeff? Looks a bit steeper than a trad spindle gouge; if so, what happens if the bevel is at 30 degrees?

[jefferson]

Hmm, I'm still trying to make sense of the problem.

The rest 'bevel' shouldn't determine the presentation but looking at your pic perhaps at those angles you get some rocking between the two edges on the rest.

What's the bevel angle on that gouge Jeff? Looks a bit steeper than a trad spindle gouge; if so, what happens if the bevel is at 30 degrees?

Ern, it's a bowl gouge. I'd be guessing at the bevel angle, maybe 60 degrees but I'll check.

I'll also read up some more today!

Jeff

[rsser]

Well I'm sure will set us right when he gets back.

FWIW Keith Rowley in his book says with spindle turning rest height is not critical.

[Tim the Timber Turner]

Hi Jeff

There are a couple of things you can check.

First the lathe hight;

I'd like to see a picture of you standing at the lathe.

How tall are you?

It appears from your pictures that the lathe could be too high for you.

Having the spindle at elbow hight is a good place to start.

Next thing to check is the toolrest hight.

The following applies to spindle turning.

With the bevel rubbing and the tool cutting the handle should be able to rest on your hip.

Adjust the tool rest hight so that this happens.

Different tool angles require different adjustments.

After doing this, if the tool is still doing what you describe, then the lathe is too high.

You then need a duck board to raise yourself up.

Most times you need to raise the toolrest when making a planing cut with a skew.

The skew will cut higher up on the work. Higher still with larger diameters.

I’ve taught many people on Vicmarc lathes and your problem has never been an issue. Your problem is in your setup not the toolrest. People may have other preferences but the standard Vicmark toolrest is quiet usable

My guess is the lathe is too high, I suspect a duckboard will fix your problem. Either that or you are holding the end of the tool below your hip hight.
I hope this helps

Cheers:)

Tim

[jefferson]

Tim, thanks for your input.

I'm 6'1" in the old language and have in fact raised my lathe twice now and it still may a fraction low. I don't have to bend down as much, so I think it has helped. I've got the beast sitting on 2 lumps of 4 by 4 oregan.

Still trying to nut this one out!

Jeff

[Tim the Timber Turner]

Jeff

Is the lathe a VL300 on a Vicmark stand?

What is your spindle hight?

Mine is 1150mm. I'm 5'10". this is abourt50mm above me elbow hight. Plenty high enough for me.

If you have raised your lathe by 100mm it may well be too high.

If you are having trouble with the tool wanting to run on the back of the toolrest as in your photo, there can only be 2 reasons.

1: The lathe is too high.

2: The toolrest is too low, which could mean the handle is being held too low and not touching on the front of the toolrest.

The handle at hip hight when the tool is cutting is the most comfortable hight to have the toolrest.

And as has been pointed out by others.

The tool works on the top edge of the toolrest. You can't just follow the angle of the toolrest.

Cheers

Tim:)

[jefferson]

Tim,

I just checked my lathe (it's on a Vicmarc stand).

Spindle height is 1250mm, which I think is 100mm higher than yours, though you are 75mm or 3 inches shorter than me.

If I put my left hand on my right shoulder, the spindle is about an inch under my elbow. The height seems to suit, so I must be using the rest too low. I'll give it a try today and see how we go!

thanks Jeff

[Tim the Timber Turner]

Hi Jeff

The lathe hight seems OK, could even be a bit higher for you.

We all have different shape bodies and arm lengths.

I suggest you adjust the toolrest until:

1: the tool is cutting with the bevel rubbing.

2 the tool is running along the top of the toolrest.

3: the end of the tool handle is about your hip height

4: don’t worry about the angle of the tool in relation to the toolrest.

If you can get 1,2,3 right. no 4 is irrelevant.

The angle of the tool to the work is the important thing not the angle of the tool in relation to the toolrest.

To test this theory out, raise the toolrest 50mm above the spindle height and see where your elbow is when you try using the tool.

Now drop it 50mm below the spindle height and try rubbing the bevel.

If the tool handle is at your hip, then you are at the most comfortable hight to use that tool. Different tools, different diameters, need different adjustments.

This would be fairly easy to sort out in person, quiet a challenge to do by the written word.

Good luck

Let’s know how you get on.

Cheers

Tim

[jefferson]

Tim and Co,

Sorry I got side-tracked today. I went thru my library all day looking for clues on this one. But in one of the Raffan books I found I was doing my V-cuts wrong. So I've been practicing this arvo with the "approved" method. Less body and tool movement, which was working fine until after beer no. 5.

Will post again tomorrow, if and when ever returns....

I've got to nut this rest thing out. Everyone - including the experts - have views on it. Some say high, others low. The Darlow stuff, which seems to say at least for end grain cutting, the lower the approach angle the better. Less sub-surface damage.

It's got me stuffed, as my Raffan books clearly show the Vicmarc rests being used not at the top of the rest!!! Not all the time, but I can get the books out and quote page numbers if you like.

In the end, it probably doesn't matter that much. But I want to learn the right way and not develop too many bad habits. (Which I probably have done already).

To my way of thinking, I want a rest that lets me decide on what I am doing. Those "bead" profiles that Ern posted look fine.

Signing off for now, it's all too complicated.

Jeff

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

The tool works on the top edge of the toolrest. You can't just follow the angle of the toolrest.

There are some cuts (eg. a back-cut a la for hollowing) where the handle of the tool is dropped much lower than a tool would normally be presented.

ie. You cut inwards at the "correct" angle, then lower the handle as you make the back-cut, making a sorta figure eight motion.

Hitting the flat - or changing the pivot point to the bottom of the flat if the tool handle goes even lower - changes the flow of the cut and can royally screw things up if you're not expecting it. (And, in my case, even when you are. :B)

[Tim the Timber Turner]

Skew
I agree with your description of the Raffan technique for hollowing with spindle gouge. This is an advanced technique.

However this was not the problem presented by Jeff. I still think he has a basic set up problem.

My comments were related to the problem being experienced by Jeff.


Jeff
Keep at it mate. Try and get together with someone to stand at your side and make corrections for you. would be your man for this. This will be more beneficial to you than all the books, videos and forum advice put together.

Cheers

Tim

[jefferson]

Skew
I agree with your description of the Raffan technique for hollowing with spindle gouge. This is an advanced technique.

However this was not the problem presented by Jeff. I still think he has a basic set up problem.

My comments were related to the problem being experienced by Jeff.


Jeff
Keep at it mate. Try and get together with someone to stand at your side and make corrections for you. would be your man for this. This will be more beneficial to you than all the books, videos and forum advice put together.

Skew and Tim,

I had up for a week not so long back for lessons and good company. I admit we did discuss in theory the back hollowing technique but we let it be. Some of the cuts showed me were a bit much. But I'm still learning, so all is OK.

And I try to keep from spraying my workplace with shavings. Doesn't seem to matter where I stand, he still gets some on me.... I just wish I'd started turning a little earlier in life. Very pleasant.

Jeff

[RETIRED]

Will reply to this later.

[Calm]

Called in to see Jeff on Monday night and he showed me what he meant.

I must admit just standing there holding a bowl gouge i found the tool sitting on the back of the rest not on the top - what this in effect does is moves the support back from the wood therefore giving the same effect as having the rest too far from the work.

Yes it is only on some cuts but it is definetly a problem.

Maybe i hold the handle too far down as well because obviously this is when it is most promonent.

Lowering the centre height would help but as jeff says then he needs to bend over further or get better glasses so he can see.:D:D

keep at it Jeff - you have overcome the lefty probs so you will beat this one as well.

I thnk Skews idea has merit so long as the "dowell" isnt too large a diameter.

Cheers

[RETIRED]

Taken from here: http://www.woodturningdesign.com/askdale/21/


We have frequently heard woodturners talk about the Laws of Woodturning, and many tongue-in-cheek comments have been made, some of which are relevant.

Seriously, there are some “laws” which need to be followed. In Keith Rowley’s highly recommended book, Woodturning, a Foundation Course, Keith lists six laws which he thought were of primary importance, and I fully agree with him.

Law 1. The speed of the lathe must be compatible with the size, weight, and length of the wood to be turned.

Law 2. The tool must be on the rest before the whirling timber is engaged, and must remain so whenever the tool is in contact with the wood.

Law 3. The bevel (grinding angle) of the cutting tools must rub the wood behind the cut.

Law 4. The only part of the tool that should be in contact with the wood is that part of the tool receiving direct support from the tool rest.

Law 5. Always cut “downhill” or with the grain.

Law 6. Scrapers must be kept perfectly flat (in section) on the tool rest and presented in the “trailing mode,” i.e., with the tool handle higher than the tool edge.

Along with the Rowley laws, several others come to mind, but in a humorous mode:

1. You can always make it smaller.
2. It’s only wood, and you can burn it at any stage.
3. Catches are not problems, but rather artistic opportunities.
4. The longer it has been since you had a catch, the closer you are to having one. Nobody gets it right all the time.
5. Practice may not make you perfect, but it certainly produces a lot of shavings.
6. If you’re not having fun, you’re probably doing something wrong.
7. When things happen on the lathe, they happen FAST.I have found that the tool rests on Vicmark lathes do not allow you to follow Rules 3 & 4 which are the fundamentals of all turning.

In my opinion the Vicmark rest should have the "bevel" ground on the back of the tool rest. This would allow good tool contact with the top or "tool supporting" part of the rest and allow you to have the rest a little closer to the work.

A badly designed rest can induce the operator to adopt bad habits.

[Cliff Rogers]

...A badly designed rest can induce the operator to adopt bad habits.
So I can blame my Vicmarc Toolrest can I. :think: :D

[RETIRED]

So I can blame my Vicmarc Toolrest can I. :think: :DHmmm, maybe.:wink: