speak to me like im a 2 yr old

[WISE]

Just getting into the semi-serious routing after owning a cheap ozito router and $60 box of 12 el cheapo bits and have heard people talking about larger bits such as panel bits. Can someone briefly explain for me what these are and are there types of bits that i am unaware of as i thought they were all the same.

Thanks

[ozwinner]

Hi
Whos a good wickle woodworker then?? :rolleyes:
Sorry couldnt help that bit.

A panel bit is the bit to make raised panels ( or floating panels ), if you look at the piccy of the desk Im making you will see the raised panels.
The outer, or frame is rail and style, again another bit is required funnily enough called, a rail and style bit. :D
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=2695

Follow this link to Carbitool a good source of Australian made bits.
http://www.carbitool.com.au/router.pdf
The file is 3meg so it might take a while to load.
I think I paid something like $ 150 for the rail and style bit, but you only get what you pay for.

Cheers, Al

[John Saxton]

WISE, Something that should be made clear is that the larger moulding bits such as the panel bits are inherently dangerous and should only be operated in a variable speed router where the speed can be wound way down.
There is a scale for speeds accordingly applied dependant on the size of the bit.
To work outside these guidelines is invite a dangerous work practice.

100mm wide-or 4" 12,000rpm
75mm or 3" 12,000rpm
63mm or 2.1/2" 16,000rpm
57mm or 2.1/4" 16,000rpm
50mm or 2" 18,000rpm
37mm or 1.1/2" 18,000rpm
32mm or 1.1/4" 18,000rpm
25mm or 1" 24,000rpm
19mm or 3/4" 24,000rpm
16mm or 5/8 24,000rpm
12.7mm or 1/2" 24,000rpm
9.5mm or 3/8" 24,000rpm
6.3mm or 1/4" 24,000rpm

These are only a guidline but you can see the larger bits run at a slower speed due to their size and the peripheral speed of the bit on the outer edge.
There is a vast array of large bits available for all manner of shaping/moulding and are not necessarily cheap but fulfil the task admirably providing that it used in conjunction with a fence and the amount of material is slowly removed in a series of successive passes to arrive at the profile you are aiming for.

Good luck
Cheers :)

[Robert WA]

Get your feet off the furniture.
You are going to bed at 8.00 pm whether you like it or not.
Stop slamming the door.

Having got that off my chest.

If you have access to a Timbecon store, the latest issue of Chatterbox, its in-house newsletter, has a one page article on the use of panel raising bits and some good illustrations of them.

Try www.timbecon.com.au You will find the article there under Chatterbox, together with other articles that have been written.

[bsrlee]

NO!

oops, that's me speaking like a 2 yr old :p

You should also look at a few sites like Lee Valley for Router bits - I've found Lee Valley a bit easier to navigate than some of the local ones, and they have the special instruction sheets for the bits on-line.

Anyhoo - they have 'vertical panel raising bits' - these look a bit like a demented carrot, but they don't have the speed restriction. You do need a tall fence tho', as the wood goes past standing on an edge instead of lying on the table. McJing has some too, but you'll have to mine for them.

The extra money you pay for a router bit pays for better quality control as well as better carbide, and the quality control realy counts with bit bits.

[WISE]

Thanks for the info,

unfortunately i'm getting flashbacks to my thumb sucking red wooden spoon marked backside days. (just last week actually):o

I tried some of the links provided with no luck, i think i'll go to a local store and have a look at some of the bits, its a little easier to understand when youve got them in your hand. Does anyone know of a good retail supplier near Golden Grove SA or on the North/Eastern side of Adelaide.

What i'm looking for is somewhere with a large cross section of bits in the good quality bracket to get an idea of whats out there. From advice i would rather go quality than pull a piece of bit from my arm with a pair of tweezers.

John,

i posted a thread about two weeks ago to decide whether i required variable speed on a router i wish to purchase, the deafening reply was yes, so i'm saving up for a triton. So the safety issue is reduced, although your recommended speeds will come in useful.(i'm also very cautious with things that can severely damage valued parts of my body)

[WISE]

brslee

just tried the Lee Valley site and seen a large variety of bits, very interesting. I'm still a little confused as to what classifies a certain bit as being from a particular type or group. Straight bits, edge bits, bearing bits etc are quite obvious, but panel bits seem to be just larger versions of other bits unless they are the types that look like "demented carrots" with two or more cutting points.

Definately going to visit a specialist and see the bits in person. Thanks

[Ian007]

wise
epts, now known as gasweld on Research Road Pooraka sell carbitool they will give you a catolgue if you ask. they have a large selection but not there whole range in stock. but only take one or two days tops to get anything in

cheers Ian :)

[Ian007]

wise did you get my private message?

Ian

[journeyman Mick]

Thanks for the info.......
..........i would rather go quality than pull a piece of bit from my arm with a pair of tweezers......

If it didn't go straight out the other side I reckon you'd be digging around with long nose pliers trying to remove the shrapnel :eek:

Mick

[bsrlee]

Forgot to mention:

Carb-i-tool import & distribute their own house brand of bits called 'Econo-Cut' - I have quite a few and find they are just the thing for roughing out ply & MDF - available in 1/4 & 1/2 inch sizes, cost varies locally - they started out around $8 but since the Aus$ has gone up so have the prices :confused: - to around $13 or so. At least you have a good local company doing the quality control & you have someone to ring up if you are unhappy. And at that price who cares if they get blunted or chipped with c**p in the board.

[bitingmidge]

If it didn't go straight out the other side I reckon you'd be digging around with long nose pliers trying to remove the shrapnel

Not disputing the danger issues at all, but morbid curiosity makes me ask:

has anyone actually had any experience with a shattering bit, if so, why did it happen and what were the consequences.

I keep hearing of the dangers, am terrified, but haven't heard of it actually happening!

Cheers,

P

[ozwinner]

Hi Midge

I had a cheap style and rail set that I bought from Timbecon, that went out of balance one day.
I inspected it with a fine tooth comb but couldnt see the problem. I stopped useing it and chucked it in the bin.
Ages later I did the " big clean " and found this green thing, couldnt work out what it was, then I realised it was a carbide from the style set.
It didnt land all that far from the router table.

I recently bought a big panel bit, this thing is 70mm across and because I didnt have a variable speed router I went and bought the Triton.
When I first used it I tryed it at slow speed but it chattered, so I upped the speed.
Guess what speed it stops chattering at, thats right, flat out.
So now I use it flat stick, a bit scarey but it does it ok. :eek:

Cheers, Al

[vsquizz]

Midge

Only failures I know about is from stupidity. Drongo I was once working with pulled his router off the job still running and went to rest it while re-positioning. The bit hit the metal part of the Record vice and myself and another bloke, who was working nearby spent about half an hour with tweezers trying to extract tiny bits of carbide from various parts of our body. Luckily we were all wearing safety glasses. Seem to get through the metal detector at the airport OK these days. Case hardened bearing housings are the worst thing...but thats another blood letting story...

[journeyman Mick]

Midge,
I've had a bit lose its TC tip, don't know where it went though. It wasn't overly large but I was doing a few hours of cutting in Jarrah so possibly as it got blunt it overheated and the brazing let go. I've had TC tips fall off masonry drill bits when the hammer action was turned off for drilling through tiles. This overheats the brazing so perhaps the same thing happened with the Jarrah doors.

Mick (the unperforated :D )

[ozwinner]

Hi Mick

In a previous life I used to braze carbides onto tool tips, and it takes a lot of heat to make one stick, and if you have to reposition one it takes just as much heat as the initial brazing.
Im talking glowing white heat, 1200/1300 degrees c. :eek:
There is no way you could get that sort of heat just useing the tool.

Id say its just bodgey workmanship that lets them come off in use. :(

Cheers, Al

[journeyman Mick]

Hi Mick.....
Id say its just bodgey workmanship that lets them come off in use... :(
Cheers, Al

Whose, mine or the toolmakers? :mad: :D
Might be bodgy workmanship with the router bit but I've had drill bits get so hot that the carbide has fallen off and the drill itself has gone like putty from the heat. I try to get out of installing door catches and stops in bathrooms nowadays, especially if they have highly vitrified 10mm thick tiles on the floors and skirtings.

Mick

[Soren]

Had a 1/4" Flush Trimming bit ( Carb-i-tool T8008B) break just under the tungsten routing 12mm MDF over the week-end, snapped clean in half and shot across the garage.
It was the first time I used this bit. Guess I was trying to make it cut faster than I should have done. ;-(

[John Saxton]

Wise, just to get back to your topic again the panel bits are probably the largest you're going to get then you have large profile moulding bits,Multiple profile bits(self explanatory)ogee's ,radius,multiple radius,dado,finger pull, and the list can go on.
As you initially said you're now venturing out into the wider scope of routing with perhaps moulding cutters and therefore perhaps a good quality set with a 1/2 shank would hold you in good stead.
try:-
www.jesada.com.au
www.carbatec.com.au
www.timbecon.com.au

Also try Carbi-tool ph 03 9555 2966 for a catalogue

All the best and good luck
Cheers :)

[ozwinner]

Guess I was trying to make it cut faster than I should have done. ;-(
Id say so, I would have use a bigger bit preferable a 1/2" if you can get to fit the router, I assume you have a 1/4" router.

Al :)

[xron]

Hi WISE - well the old Bunnies router and el cheapo bits would appear to have paid for themselves as you're now ready to march on.
1) Panel bits - incredibly useful tools but please take to heart the speed comments from John Saxton - he's totally correct. I made a copy of Winston Churchill's Roll Top desk some years ago using these large bits. Even though I separated myself from the bit by 25mm MDF lined on both sides with 6mm poly carb it still scared me to death.
Thus if you see the need for these bits you really do need to invest in a variable speed router. The Hitachi MR12 or the Makita 36xx equivalent should do fine.

Sourcing of bits. Do your homework first. I'd suggest that you get on the net and look at Carbatec.com.au and request their catalogues( 2 off). They used to have a range of Taiwanese ( I think) bits and when I was buying they were 1/2 to 2/3 the price of Australian or NZ bits. However they now seem to concentrate upon Italian CMT bits though they do have a small range of their original bits in their 1st catalogue. I cannot fault them after 10 or more year's use. You'll get a lot out of these catalogues as almost all bits are shown to 1:1 scale.
If you need a local source for quality bits try what used to be Trembaths ( they've recently been bouight out and I can;t reacll the new name) almost directly opposite Welland Avenue on Grange Road. By the size of their display I suspect that they carry every single Carbitool bit.

2) More Homework - if you intend to get serious try you local library for " Router Jigs and Techniques" by Patrick Spielman - or anything by this author - it will blow your mind.

3) There are replies to your Q regarding narrow panel bits that do not need a speed controlled router but need a sound and tall fence. Actually the real secret here is to have the router mounted horizontally!! Within a few months I hope to be able to post pictures of my AURTA Mark #8 ( the Almost Ultimate Router Table Australia) - all should be obvious then.

All the best to you - Ron

[PJP]

I bought the Giffkens dovetail jig at the Sydney wood show a couple of years ago and both router bits broke up. Not the cutting edge but the top surround area. Did not get hit or notice damage to timber etc. These bits were put into a 1/2" markita and have used many router bits before and after with no drama. Have not bothered to complain because like most of the stalls at the show they are extremely busy and I know what the outcome would be.The bottom line is "you pay for what you get".

Cheers pjp

[Soren]

Id say so, I would have use a bigger bit preferable a 1/2" if you can get to fit the router, I assume you have a 1/4" router.

Al :)

I have the Triton 1/2" router, but I needed a trimming bit with a bearing, which is less than 7mm in diameter.
Where the wooden tracks join (ie like a jigsaw puzzle) the gap is quite small.
Obviously I would prefer to use a 1/2" bit, but I have not been able to find such an animal.
I ended up cutting all the 'male' ends with a small band-saw and the 'female' ends, by drilling and then cutting the material between the edge and the hole using the bandsaw again. Quite a tedious process with 64 male ends and as many female ends.
If I need to do more, which is quite on the cards, I would prefer to use a strong router bit, without any flex. I was even considering a solid tungsten bit, but finances and frequency of use, preclude such a purchase, if indeed I could even get it.

[bitingmidge]

Soren,

I hope I'm reading your post correctly, and you are making wooden train track?

Check out this link:building toy train tracks (http://www.bscandm.com/trains/)

Check the link to alternative connectors, and you'll see an alternative made from wooden balls on dowel, with a drilled female connector rather than a routed one. The balls can be bought very cheaply by the thousand.

I am still trying to source a purpose made bit set that doesn't cost $75.00 US though!

Download this Woodcraft Rail Track Hints (http://www.bscandm.com/trains/) as well for a bit more info on the process, although using the special bits.

Cheers,

P

[Soren]

Soren,

I hope I'm reading your post correctly, and you are making wooden train track?

P

Yes, I am making tracks for my son's Thomas the Tank Engine toys. If I had had the nous I would have DAGS to hopefully find the site you showed, but I did it the hard way, cutting the pieces in squares, and then using the router bit to follow a template for the curves and the joiners, putting far too much stress on a skinny bit.
I was contemplating using the balls and dowels as loose pieces, ie 2 balls joined with a piece of dowel, and then just make all the ends with the holes ion them, but on advice from others, who had embarked on the same project, decided against it, as the joiners get lost / gets vacuumed up.
The problem was still getting the bit to follow the template into the bottom of the slot/hole.
I'll certainly read the site and hopefully learn enough not to make such a silly mistake again

[Robert WA]

PJP
The last time I looked the router bits supplied by Gifkens were made by Carb-I-Tool. Carb-I-Tool makes a high quality product, in my view.
It surprises me to hear that the bits failed. I would be back in touch with Gifkens, pronto, for replacements and I would send a copy of the letter to Carb-I-Tool.
For the range of bits have a look at http://www.carbitool.com.au/products.htm
Buy Australian.