Dust Collection - Machinery Connections

[Cliff Rogers]

Dean Martin, James Dean, or Jan and Dean?



Nah dopey.... torvel & dean.... :D
Opps, :confused: that wasn't 25 years ago yet.

[Cliff Rogers]

Tut tut, So how long does a 1 micron pleated filter last?? Anybody!!:D

piece of string question.... how long will a set of tyres last? :)

[Cliff Rogers]

... someone mentioned truck filters...

The thing that bothers me about them is that for them to be cheap,
they have to be 2nd hand so already dust laden &...
they were used in a suction mode not a blow mode so all the collected
dust is on the outside. What's gunna happen when you start blowing
air through them from the inside. :confused:

[vsquizz]

piece of string question.... how long will a set of tyres last? :)
I just knew somebody would say that. I should be taken out and shot.:o

Do you want me to re-phrase the question Cliff??.:D Reason I ask is some sales types will tell you for amateur usage (great definition) the filter (pleated) may last indefinetly if blown out with air occaisionally. Now it seems to me one of the factors prevalent in the considerations of middling around and conjagulating, procrastinating and fuddling over the cost and which DC to buy!! is the cost of the 1 micron filter pleated jobby.

Ssoooo bearing mind that I have a really realllyy OLD 3 HP DC with rust and your bog standard bag (its so old I think Southern Cross built it) and I'm looking to upgrade to a newbie, will having a cyclone extend the life of my expensive pleated filter or maybe I don't need it?.

Anyway, it will all depend on how many hours the dam thing runs and how much cr*p is sucked into it. I do contract engineering work 2-4 weeks, go like the clappers, heaps $$$ then it may be a month before the next job (broke by then :(

In the off time I (am) build fruitcaking limestone walls and fences and sheds and gardens and.....Ggrrrr ,:mad: when I am supposed to be in the shed, relaxing, contemplating life and my navel, generating a bit of sawdust and building something for the family. I recycle old jarrah from houses so the machines get a real flogging from time to time, probably more so than most amateurs. Rather than a weekend warrior I tend to be all go flat out then nothing.

I was just wondering how long other users got out of their pleated filters??

How's that grab ya:D . Apologies for being so unspecific (is that a word)


piece of string question
And Cliff...I was gunna tell ya a joke about three pieces of strings...but I'm afraid knot tonight:)

Cheers

[bitingmidge]

Ssoooo bearing mind that I have a really realllyy OLD 3 HP DC with rust and your bog standard bag (its so old I think Southern Cross built it) and I'm looking to upgrade to a newbie, will having a cyclone extend the life of my expensive pleated filter or maybe I don't need it?.

Having a cyclone MUST extend the life of the filter, but I am yet to work out how long a filter will last, and how to tell if it is dead!! Mine's a paper one, had quite light use for three (ish) years. I rotate the brushes before and after each day's use, and have never tried to blow it out(!!). I suspect that the new plastic-stuff ones would last almost indefinitely in a cyclone situation, so that may in itself be enough to justify the cyclone!

I think I will tell when the DC goes blue and stops puffing!

Upgrade to a filter NOW anyway, (not a difficult change). Build your ducting (eh hee hee) and if ever you get that finished use the bits you have to power the cyclone!

Where are you Wayne??

Chees,

P

[Cliff Rogers]

Yeah, what midge said & I don't know for sure how long they will last anyway.

There are even more problems to consider with paper filters...
Up here in the wet season, mould eats everything... :mad:
Up here we have mould that will even eat diesel & the ferric oxide(?) coating
on recording media, video tapes, floppy disks, etc.
The only thing it won't eat is tomato sauce :eek:, ever noticed that?
Even cockroaches won't eat it... they'll chew the label on the bottle before
they'll even touch the ring of goop around the lid. :D

Opps, off topic again.... :rolleyes:

Filters are 'consumables' like tyres & will get used up & worn out by the amount you use them.
Even when you don't use them, they will deteriorate all by themselves by the
action of mould, heat, light, & spilling beer, paint, coffee etc on them.

[Grunt]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bitingmidge
... Get a bit of newspaper, fold it in half to get a thicker edge then wrap it round the pipe till it meets in one line.




I was going to give you a greenie for this neat idea but it seems that I
have already given you a greenie recently so you'll have to wait.

Biting, I'll cough up a nice greenie for you. Damn good idea.

[Caliban]

Tut tut, So how long does a 1 micron pleated filter last?? Anybody!!:D


I know the answer was about string,
But I was going to say "about one micron!" :D

[vsquizz]

Don't have the mould/humidity problem anymore, moved from FNQ to SandLand, dry as a witch's t*** . Still keep the old RJ12 & RJ45 cables with all the green stuff on the contacts to show people what 4 months in Holloways Beach does to electronic stuff.


Cheers

[Cliff Rogers]

...Still keep the old RJ12 & RJ45 cables with all the green stuff on the contacts to show people what 4 months in Holloways Beach does to electronic stuff...

Arhh salt air, forgot about that... it usually doesn't cause mould,
just corrision & condensation on contaminated surfaces.

[vsquizz]

& spilling beer,
Heathen;)

[vsquizz]

Bump:D . I'm still none the wiser.

1.) Plain bag put outside
2.) Pleated filter for extra dollars
3.) Cyclone and plain filter
4.) Cyclone and Pleated Filter??

??????????????????????

[Grunt]

1.) Plain bag put outside
2.) Pleated filter for extra dollars
3.) Cyclone and plain filter
4.) Cyclone and Pleated Filter??
Squiz,

It'll depends on your situation.

1. Is out because you will need some kind of separator, otherwise your bag will block really quickly and you will lose suction. A cyclone is the best separator. This is only viable if you don't have any neighbours close and your kids don't play outside.
2. A filter will block very quickly unless you have a separator.
3. Only if it is safe to have the fine dust particals outside.
4. The best option.

A 200 litre drum makes a reasonably effective separator if it is setup right and there isn't too much horse power in you DC otherwise it'll suck up what ever is in the drum no matter how you configure the inlet and outlet. There was a recent post that had pictures of what someone did to make a separator out of a 200 litre drum.

Grunt

[vsquizz]

Thanks Grunt, yes saw different's 44. I'm keen on outside but I'm already fitting my shed in with a shoe horn so it might be enclosed into a corner with some louvres of something to keep the gunk outside.

Its just working out the math $$$. I'm sort of saying that if you have a good cyclone why have a pleated if you can get it outside? or vicky verka. I can get a 3hp unit with cyclone for $1,325.00, seems reasonable to me but.....

In a nutshell whilst having both pleated and cyclone are ducks...If your trimming the budget, which is the first to go??. I guess the answer is Different's 44 plus the pleated:D . Am I going around in circles:confused:

Appreciate your advice.


Cheers

[Grunt]

Squiz,

Firstly, let me say that everything I know about dust collection is from reading Bill Pentz' site and from reading the many posts on the subject here.

Wood dust is a carcinogen. That is breathing it in can cause cancer. The small particals get stuck in the lungs and are too small for us to expel with coughing or normal breathing. The smaller the partical the more dangerous it is. We're talking less than 30 microns and really bad ones are less than 5 microns.

Venting Outside is only an option if these particals are not going to harm anyone. I live on half an acre and the prevaling wind would blow the dust over into a paddock with cows on it which would be great. However the wind isn't always from the west or southwest, which means sometimes it will blow into the neighbours yard where they have kids¹ who play and other times it'll blow into my house or back into my shed.

This means you really need to use a good quality pleated filter.

Filters will clog up with wood dust very quickly if you don't have a good separator which will separate the bulk of the wood dust from the small particals. This will allow the filter to do it's job on the very fine stuff. Once the filters get clogged then the performance of the DC system will suffer dramatically.

With a 3 horse power DC, I fear you will suck everything out of a 44 gallon drum separator no matter how you configure the inlet and the outlet.

A cyclone is very effectively in separating the wood bulk of the dust from the fine stuff.

Have you considered building your own cylone? A number of people on this BB have done so (check out Wayne Davey's website). It doesn't look like it is a particularly tricky thing to do. Bill Pentz' website has step by step instructions on how to do it. These won't cost all that much to build. This is what I plan to do.

Bill Pentz Website (http://billpentz.com//woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm)

¹ This is an effective way to kill the children but it takes far to long to be of any use.

[jcani4]

A 200 litre drum makes a reasonably effective separator if it is setup right and there isn't too much horse power in you DC otherwise it'll suck up what ever is in the drum no matter how you configure the inlet and outlet. There was a recent post that had pictures of what someone did to make a separator out of a 200 litre drum.

Grunt
does a 200 litre dust separator effect the airflow or preformance of the system?

[Wayne Davy]

jcani4,

Yes, any Separator be it inline or a Cyclone, they will decrease air flow. The main difference is that with an inline separator you can only go to 2hp max (and even that is pushing it) as any larger and it will just empty the separator defeating the purpose. Hence the Cyclones (well for one reason anyway).

[Jack E]

What are the limitations of making a cyclone, leaving the blower attached to a store bought DC with duct or pipe between the two?
If this can be done then why remove the blower from the DC?

[rev]

What are the limitations of making a cyclone, leaving the blower attached to a store bought DC with duct or pipe between the two?
If this can be done then why remove the blower from the DC?
Yes, it can be done. But it doesn't make most efficient use of the DC (IMHO).

The cyclone is as much about protecting health as it is about collecting woodchips - probably moreso. If the DC is used as is (ie without adding pleated filters rated at one micron or better) you still risk blowing harmful sized dust back into the room to be breathed. Also, the further the DC inlet is positioned from the cyclone outlet the more static pressure (resistance) needs to be overcome -requiring more powerful motor, larger blower etc (and more expense!). You also limit the airflow by using a pipe or hose the size of the inlet flange on the DC (for 2hp DCs this is only 5"). If you go the effort of addressing these issues on your mobile DC you might as well have solved the problem more elegantly, functionally, and inexpensively by "doing it right" from the start.
Cheers

[Jack E]

Thanks for that Rev.

Next ?, if you don't blow the dust in to the DC where do you blow it?

[rev]

Some of the finest dust is carried in the airstream that goes through the blower and into the filter. I use old truck filters stacked on top of each other. They provide a massive area of filtration with very little resistance against which the blower has to work. They are also FREE - truck service depot is happy to get rid of them! I'll get a picture for you sooner or later. The cloth filters on bag type DCs would let most of this dust through - they really are next to useless if dust collection is for health benefits.
Cheers

[DPB]

Rev, sound like a good idea - I look forward to seeing a photo. How close is the fit to your DC and was it easy to connect?

[rev]

Ok, Here is a picture of my setup. The filter stack is sealed with silicone between each filter. A dust trap is built at the bottom of the stack; it has a removable perspex front to see the dust that comes through the system and for cleaning (unfortunately not in the picture).

Cheers

[echnidna]

No pic here!

[beejay1]

Blow the dust off Bob and youll see ithttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon7.gif
beejay1

http://community.webshots.com/user/eunos9

[rev]

OOPS! Try again...

[HiString]

Guys, very interesting thread........

I have recently spent hours reading the info on Bill Pentz's site...........the guy deserves a medal.

One thing I noticed was that while he does say on a number of occasions that the minimum requirements for a cyclone to be effective are a 2hp mtr fitted with a 12" impeller, he gives little further detail or instruction preferring instead to focus on 3hp/14" impeller setups. Now that is fine, BUT in the US, the mains power is 60hz which means that a standard single phase mtr normally rotates at approx., 3400rpm whereas our mains power is 50hz which equates to a standard 2740rpm (from memory), so straight away our blowers are running 19% slower than Bill Pentz's designs allow for. The obvious conclusion would be that because of this, a BP designed cyclone will never function at it's full efficiency here in Australia unless of course the impeller drive is geared to increase the rpm.

Any comments?


Regardless of being aware of the above, I recently picked up a used Hafco 2hp, 1200CFM H/duty DC from an auction for $200 with the intention of canabalising it for a cyclone blower as this unit has a 12" impeller as per BP's minimum specs., and this brings me to the next point............:

The Hafco (along with numerous similar units) 2hp DC has a 12" impeller and is rated at 1200CFM. Carbatec list 2 models of "single bag" 2hp DC, one with a rating of 1200CFM the other is 1700CFM. I have seen other brands of the 1700 unit which are only rated at 1200CFM. Somehow, I think Carbatec's specs on their 1700CFM model should be viewed with some suspicion as I fail to see how they could pick up a near 45% increase in performance without increasing the motor size.


Lastly, can anyone tell me why I am not seeing about 90% of thumbnail links in posts.............it is only occasionally that there is a "dash" in an attachment window that will let me link to a pic.

:cool:

[Harry72]

There's even another thing, unless you buy a JET brand you wont get a 14" impeller on a 3hp unit.
Your right about the 2750rpm, thats what mine runs(3hp cheapy)at with a 13.25" impeller, rated at 2000cfm at one shop 2300cfm at another shop... exactly same unit, same $$$ just different colors!(lucky its not red)
Id go as far to say it probably wouldnt suck 2000cfm even, in real life circumstances.

The 1700cfm may possibly have a bigger impeller, probably same motor it'll just be closer to its max amp loading than the lower rated unit. Still looks identical on the outside, also find things like better motor bearings and thickness of the steel used to make it with will be different, so it will last longer in constant use.

Its not that the cyclone wont work, BP likes a bigger cfm to make up for the friction loss you get using a cyclone separator, ie a 3hp would have near the same cfm with a cyclone connected as 2hp without one.

[Bob Willson]

Wow, just started at the beginning and read the whole lot. Only took me about three hours. (I'm a slow reader).

One thing that people were asking about was air volume and wind speed. This is a link to an Aussie anemometer (http://www.weatherdownunder.net.au/index.php?cPath=52&osCsid=d1d98f71cd1106ceec1b4b114821869b)

I don't mean the anemometer is Aussie, just the site. I think the anemometer is French. It costs $100

[Wayne Davy]

Or you could make your own Manometer (Bill mentions these I think) for a few bucks.

http://www.science-house.org/student/bw/flight/manometer.html

What is a Manometer.....Quote from the site above :

A manometer measures the speed of air based on Bernoulli's Principle.As the fast moving air moves over the tube opening at C, low pressure is created. The higher pressure at A, where the air is still, pushes the water up the tube. As the speed of the air at C increases, the difference in pressure between A and C also increases and work is done on the water to push it up the tube (B). http://www.science-house.org/student/bw/flight/images/manomdiagram.JPG

[Wayne Davy]

Another link http://www.rverscorner.com/articles/manometer.html

(and No, I have not made one myself yet)

[tomcat]

I've just read this thread right through and enjoyed the work put in by all. This is my first post to the site so please be gentle. Having recently become aware of the dust issue and read Bill Pentz' site I now intend to build a cyclone. (It was something to do with the layer of dust in the shed and the fact that I noticed how tight my chest became after a recent sanding episode. )
I was fortunate enough to pick up a second hand Ledacraft 2 hp DC yesterday so am now planning the project, looking at ducting sizes etc. Space is limited so the cyclone will have to go in the lean to firewood shed. From what I've read it looks like 6 inch main lines are the way to go.

I have some Triton gear (Router table and WC2000) and wondered whether anyone has comments on the huge difference in diameter between the dust ports on that gear (38mm or 1.5 inch) and the 4 inch branch lines that everyone seems to consider to be the minimum. I have only seen one comment about this - to the effect that you can use plumbing fittings to reduce down. But how effective is the suction when you reduce down from 6 inch to 4 inch to 1.5 inch? Does this mean that I will also need to build hoods for everything?

I'm not afraid to do the work - but I want to plan.

[dai sensei]

Welcome aboard Tomcat.

There are quite a few threads on connecting DCs to the Triton gear under the Triton forum section of this board. The best ideas involve modifying the DC connection to allow larger pipes - do a search an you should find them.

I have only a 1hp unit with 4" PVC pipes, but used a sheet metal taper to the 2 smaller pipes for the router table (see http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=19657). Be careful to ensure there is enough airflow to your DC or you may restrict the intake too much and burn your motor out (Bill Bentz also talks about this on his site) - ie don't just reduce a 6" pipe down to a 1.5" intake.

Cheers

[Harry72]

dai sensei, its the oppisite its when there's not enough restriction that the motor goes under a harder load... because its moving more air, put your hand over the end of a vacuum cleaner hose and the motor will speed up because theres no load to slow it down, ie your vacuum cleaner works its hardest with a clean bag!
Thats why BP gets into measuring the load of the motor when making the inlet to the impellor larger to make up for the friction loss assicated with adding a separator/cyclone, he say's that most manufactorers purposely leave the inlet hole smaller so the motor doesnt burnout when the is no ducting conected... and make cheap motors last.
If you measure your motor amperage under load you'll probarly find the motor is only using about half of its amperage capability.

Anyway to unhyjack this thread(" Dust Collection - Machinery Connections")
I made up a connection today for my Tsaw tennon jig because you cant use a overhead guard with draughting.
Just a bit of a 102mm pvc attacked with a heat gun, couple of screws and yehaa bobs me uncle!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v725/ST170ish/woodwork/tennonjigdust1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v725/ST170ish/woodwork/tennonjigdust2.jpg

[soundman]

Yike harry those wood chips don't have a chance.

If I was a wood chip comming off that blade I'd be afraid very afraid. :eek:

[dai sensei]

dai sensei, its the oppisite its when there's not enough restriction that the motor goes under a harder load...


I thought it was both, no restriction and to much :confused: . Oh well back to BP's DC bible web page for more reading:o .

Nice set-up by the way Harry72.

[tomcat]

Thanks for the tips - I've checked out the Triton dust threads and also your site -(Dai Sensei) - some good practical ideas. Now I just need to get cracking.