PDA

View Full Version : Whetstone sharpening and all that jazz



rsser
28th June 2009, 03:29 PM
Following on from 's sharp weekend I've settled down to play with the Scheppach.

The wheel was dressed at the coarse setting, c 200, and at that takes off metal fairly quickly. The grind marks on the bevel are noticeable and with a skew and the wheel turning away a wire edge forms that breaks away into flakes with finger pressure. So I graded the wheel to 1000 and got a finer finish as you'd expect.

There's a lot of work still to do to standardise the angles on the spindle tools to speed whetstone setup and I'm working through this on an 80 grit pink wheel. Kept clean this works OK if you're patient. There's some flex in the Chinese mitred platform and consistent pressure is needed to avoid slight facets.

At 200 grit the whetstone does a fair job of pulling a skew up the wheel; that diminishes at the finer grit. All I have is the platform for this while a Tormek multi-jig is in the mail (SVs-50).

I think it was this jig that and Ken criticised but can't recall what for .... can anyone help?

The other concern is how to handle mini-tools. I tried a packing strip on the platform to provide handle clearance but found it hard to avoid facets on the small skew.

There's a lot of setup time but I'm guessing that with the right jigs and tool setter, and consistency of grind geometries, once you've got it sorted then you just record and follow the numbers.

The jigs in the kit so far are are the Jet fingernail grind jobbie, square across jig, the platform and the original Scheppach.

Apart from the SVS-50 is anything else advisable? (A tool setter is in the mail too.) Other tips? (The S. didn't come with much of a manual.)

RETIRED
28th June 2009, 05:12 PM
I think it was this jig that and Ken criticised but can't recall what for .... can anyone help?My criticism of that particular jig is that you have to be careful that the chisel is in fact centred.

I remedied the problem by shimming the sides to the width of the chisel. All my skews are the same thickness so I was lucky there.

rsser
28th June 2009, 05:54 PM
Thanks .

One of the virtues of being on a good thing and sticking to it.

KenW
28th June 2009, 06:23 PM
Following on from 's sharp weekend I've settled down to play with the Scheppach.

The wheel was dressed at the coarse setting, c 200, and at that takes off metal fairly quickly. The grind marks on the bevel are noticeable and with a skew and the wheel turning away a wire edge forms that breaks away into flakes with finger pressure. So I graded the wheel to 1000 and got a finer finish as you'd expect.

There's a lot of work still to do to standardise the angles on the spindle tools to speed whetstone setup and I'm working through this on an 80 grit pink wheel. Kept clean this works OK if you're patient. There's some flex in the Chinese mitred platform and consistent pressure is needed to avoid slight facets.

At 200 grit the whetstone does a fair job of pulling a skew up the wheel; that diminishes at the finer grit. All I have is the platform for this while a Tormek multi-jig is in the mail (SVs-50).

I think it was this jig that and Ken criticised but can't recall what for .... can anyone help?

The other concern is how to handle mini-tools. I tried a packing strip on the platform to provide handle clearance but found it hard to avoid facets on the small skew.

There's a lot of setup time but I'm guessing that with the right jigs and tool setter, and consistency of grind geometries, once you've got it sorted then you just record and follow the numbers.

The jigs in the kit so far are are the Jet fingernail grind jobbie, square across jig, the platform and the original Scheppach.

Apart from the SVS-50 is anything else advisable? (A tool setter is in the mail too.) Other tips? (The S. didn't come with much of a manual.)

The only comment that I made about the SVS-50, changing the two seats for different gouges is time consuming. I bought a second, and solved the problem.
The Tormek SVS32 short tool jig is good for some mini-tools
How good is the quality of the gouge jig that comes with the Scheppach?

rsser
28th June 2009, 06:40 PM
Thanks for that tip about the SVS32 Ken. Will check it out.

The S. jigs are copies of Tormeks and though not as well made seem serviceable. But actually the fingernail jig I have is a Jet. Same knuckle pivot but has a pointed shaft that sits in a pocketed block on the mount bar (like a Unijig jig). The point wants to climb out of the pocket but I've got it to work OK. Just can't get right over on the handle end of the wings of an Ellsworth Sig gouge but that's no drama.

rsser
29th June 2009, 01:51 PM
As I understand it Tormek are about to release hardware to sit in front of a dry grinder to take their jigs.

Wonder if it will be similar to the rod sitting in front of Northern Woodturners grinder. Heard this was your work Ken.

jefferson
29th June 2009, 03:24 PM
Ern,

Very interesting that Tormek are bringing something out. is trying to make me a stand using the Tormek bar in front of the grinder. Will keep you all posted.

I've found it almost impossible to match a True-Grind setting with the Tormek. For example, on Saturday I re-ground one of my spindle gouges. I used the no 3 setting on the T/G, but the match is on the no. 2 setting on the Tormek.

The hollows are different of course, given the differing diameters of the wheels. But once you shape it correctly, it's not hard to really hone on the wet wheel.

I don't know why, but Ken W. only uses the no. 2 setting on his Tormek jig for all his gouges, both spindle and bowl. How does that work?

Ideally, I'd like to sell-off my grinders one day and revert solely to the Tormek. But I have some serious regrinding to do soon (new mini-tools and all my scrapers) and I want some speed! :D

Jeff

rsser
29th June 2009, 03:56 PM
Jeff, it's a learning curve for me but AFAIK the lower the JS no. on the Tormek fingernail jig the shorter the wings will be. Ken's using bowl gouges a lot in spindle turning so presumably shorter wings provide bettter access with the tool held on the side the way he does .... but I'd best let him speak for himself.

BTW, I can't see the point of not having a dry grinder. Turning tools aren't the only things you can do on them obviously.

rsser
29th June 2009, 04:15 PM
BTW Jeff I've read that Tormek wheels if wet can crack if the temp drops below zero, and up in your chilly hollow .....

Groggy
29th June 2009, 04:31 PM
Ern and Jeff, I have two waterstone units. One of the wheels cracked, I think it was due to leaving the wheel partially immersed. Nowadays I use them then drain the reservoir.

PS Wheels are expensive.

Woodwould
29th June 2009, 04:40 PM
What about adding antifreeze to the bath? It would prevent freezing and would add a degree of lubrication too.

jefferson
29th June 2009, 05:10 PM
You guys are gems. (WouldWood, second Forum smile today for me, so thanks!) :)

How's things going on the Gen Woodwork section? I don't travel there anymore. :((

Now Ern, I think the temp. control in the shed is OK. I hope. It's got that air-bubble stuff (R2 apparently) in the roof and walls, plus batts in the walls in that end of the shed. So I'm hoping that stone doesn't crack. It better not at $300+ replacement!

We had -8 degrees here the year before last and the water pipes burst.... Yep, we can see the snow on a clear day from our block. Snow is maybe 30kms away as the crow flies. And when the southerly gets up, it's cold.

But back to the wet grinder. I'm now wearing the wheel down. Previously, I only used it for my bench chisels and plane blades - just trying to avoid the hollowing. The new doovie that flattens the stones is so much better, so I'm now not overly worried about the dips. I can see another stone coming soon however....

And I too do not leave the wheel in water, unless I forget. I'm not sure, but the Tormek is supposed to run on continuous duty cycle. So on good turning days, I now leave it running all the time.

The water dish is a PITA on the Tormek. They must do something about it.

I must build a dedicated cabinet on wheels for the wet grinder. Out of either SS or marine ply. Water does go everywhere.

Jeff

rsser
29th June 2009, 05:14 PM
The antifreeze idea was put to Jeff Farris the guru of the Tormek forum.

He gave it the thumbs down I'm afraid.

"http://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?topic=748.0"

Woodwould
29th June 2009, 06:19 PM
Well it's a sad day when you don't learn something!

KenW
29th June 2009, 07:35 PM
As I understand it Tormek are about to release hardware to sit in front of a dry grinder to take their jigs.

Wonder if it will be similar to the rod sitting in front of Northern Woodturners grinder. Heard this was your work Ken.

I discovered by accident a couple of years ago that the Tormek jigs work on the old Heligrind base. Max the president at northern mad a slightly larger version and the club bought some Tormek jigs. A lot easier to teach people if they have sharp tools.

KenW
29th June 2009, 07:40 PM
Jeff,
I leave the Tormek jig on setting 2 for all my spindle and bowl gouges. The different bevel lengths and shapes are acheived be changing the distance the gouge protrudes out of the jig. I use the settings that are shown on TTS-100 tool setter.

The short bevel on a bowl gouge makes turning tight curves on spindle work easier, not the side grind.

I have never had a Tormek stone break in cold weather in Melbourne, however I always (nearly always) remove the water trough when I am not turning.

I don't know that leaving the Tormek running all day is a good idea. If I am going to sharpen a lot, I leave the wheel in the water all day, and remove overnight.
If you leave the stone in water for a long time without running the machine, the stone becomes heavier on one side, and the machines thumps as it rotates until the water evens out in the stone.

Groggy
29th June 2009, 07:46 PM
What about adding antifreeze to the bath? It would prevent freezing and would add a degree of lubrication too.Woodwould, noting other comments about salt etc, my stone cracked and it wasn't near freezing. I suspect what caused it was that one part of the stone was in water and a different temperature so it expanded at uneven rates. :(

jefferson
29th June 2009, 10:19 PM
Jeff,
I leave the Tormek jig on setting 2 for all my spindle and bowl gouges. The different bevel lengths and shapes are acheived be changing the distance the gouge protrudes out of the jig. I use the settings that are shown on TTS-100 tool setter.

The short bevel on a bowl gouge makes turning tight curves on spindle work easier, not the side grind.

I have never had a Tormek stone break in cold weather in Melbourne, however I always (nearly always) remove the water trough when I am not turning.

I don't know that leaving the Tormek running all day is a good idea. If I am going to sharpen a lot, I leave the wheel in the water all day, and remove overnight.
If you leave the stone in water for a long time without running the machine, the stone becomes heavier on one side, and the machines thumps as it rotates until the water evens out in the stone.

Ken - you, I and will talk about the no 2 setting again for sure. I'm just having some problems getting my head around it. That is, the higher the setting on the Tormek jig, then I think you get more side grind? Or do you just work more on the side of the flutes to get the grind you want?

As for running my Tormek all day, that doesn't happen often and even then I make sure the water trough is full. I've only wasted maybe 15-20mm from the stone in 8 or so years but I am well in front. Not so in the coming weeks though....

Jeff

KenW
30th June 2009, 06:44 PM
Jeff, the higher the number on the Tormek jig the longer the wings will be. You control the shape of the fingernail grind ( the shape of the fromt of the gouge). If you roll the gouge from side to side quickly the front of the chisel will be pointed, Roll slowly and the front will be more rounded.

Big Shed
30th June 2009, 06:55 PM
On the subject of Whetstone grinding, Northwood Tools has some news on a new Tormek system for the bench grinder and the availabilty of the Jet Grinder and accessories, in their latest newsletter (http://www.toolco.com.au/NWNews_July2009P1.html).

rsser
30th June 2009, 07:37 PM
Yep: link here http://www.toolco.com.au/shopexd.asp?id=1442&bc=no

rsser
30th June 2009, 09:10 PM
Jet wet grinder jigs seem to be about 6 weeks away. They are available from Amazon but Amazon's shipping practices seem to have changed for the worse with UPS courier coming up as the only choice for items like these.

Anyone who wants to try the Jet platform and fingernail jig is welcome to drop around.

For the Ellsworth Sig gouge grind it seems neither the Jet nor the Tormek jigs will get right round the wings.

hughie
30th June 2009, 11:01 PM
re additives to your Tormek water bath. I suspect that they think it would only assist in clogging the wheel up.

But then if you used something similar to what is common practice in most engineering shops ie a soluble cutting oil generally diluted to around 25-30 to 1. Then I dont see it being a problem.

As to what type, there are many to chose from, one brand does stand out tho' Rocol Ultracut, well IMHO it does. :U

jefferson
30th June 2009, 11:21 PM
Jet wet grinder jigs seem to be about 6 weeks away. They are available from Amazon but Amazon's shipping practices seem to have changed for the worse with UPS courier coming up as the only choice for items like these.

Anyone who wants to try the Jet platform and fingernail jig is welcome to drop around.

For the Ellsworth Sig gouge grind it seems neither the Jet nor the Tormek jigs will get right round the wings.

Ern, I have instructions somewhere here on using the Tormek (or your Sheppache machine) for the Ellsworth grind. The source of the material came direct from Tormek - set the jig at +1 on the widest angle, set the bar at 2 1/4 inches and proceed. If anyone's interested, I'll try to find it.

I tried the Ellsworth on my 5/8 Kryo and didn't like it - way too aggressive. But I did play with 's smaller one and it worked a treat for me when hollowing little bowls.

Jeff

RETIRED
30th June 2009, 11:59 PM
Do a google with the following : fred holder ellswoth grind

It is a PDF.

DJ’s Timber
1st July 2009, 12:07 AM
Do a google with the following : fred holder ellswoth grind

It is a PDF.

Linky to said PDF (http://www.morewoodturning.net/Ellsworth%20Grind%20on%20Tormek.pdf) :2tsup:

rsser
1st July 2009, 09:07 AM
Thanks guys.

The Jet jig design is different but I'll have another fiddle.

Guys on the Tormek forum have posted about a JS of 4.5 through to the extrapolated 6.

RETIRED
1st July 2009, 01:06 PM
Tormek reckon stet jig on 6. Protrusion 75 MM TTS on bowl gouge, That is the setting I use and it duplicates Freds almost perfectly but the tool holder is right across on the inner bar to get the sweep.

rsser
1st July 2009, 01:37 PM
Think that was my prob ; started with protrusion of 50 mm. There was still only a smidgen of unground wing though.

...

I've got a Bench Grinder Mount on order and will report back (that is if I don't succumb to the siren call of fresh powder snow in Unzud beforehand :D ).