Thread: Do you call yourself a carver or a sculptor?

Hi Frank,
I think there is an aspect of elitism in the traditional art of carving, and maybe with good reason.
1/A well-sharpened tool (gouge, chisel or spokeshave) will give a better finish than sandpaper in the first instance, with crisper edges.
2/There is less dust, which could be a big health bonus.
3/It also involves a hell of a lot of manual skill, in most cases learned by years of practice...something of an anathema in today's commercial world!
If a carving can only be defined by using a sharp tool (gouge or chisel), then any power 'carving', like an Arbortech, sanding disc or drum, die grinder, or Dremel can't be classified as such, but what about a rasp? A sharp tool for sure, and one in many carvers and sculptors' toolkits, even with stone. I guess to take that route, an Abortech is (or should be) sharp, and sandpaper itself is made of sharp bits.... I have come up against the same prejudice with blacksmithing, by insisting on final shaping with a file, not a hammer!
Anyway, I'll happily describe myself as a sculptor, as I sometimes incorporate carved elements in my work. I very rarely just do a "carving", with no other pieces joined or incorporated, and even a straight carving may be articulated. There is a big difference between sculptors too, those that work in a reductive way (ie. carving away from a larger piece; the traditional sculptor of stone and timber), or in an additive way, joining pieces together (like direct metal sculpture through welding; or assemblage). Of course there is also casting of bronzes etc, which is a hybrid, because it involves carving an original and casting it, often in several pieces to be joined later.
Interesting point, and a good way to start the week, but in today's context I reckon its just elitism or prejudice. As many people point out on this forum about Darkside techniques, if an old craftsperson had access to the new technology to make a living, they'd (mostly) jump at it!! Maybe a bit like saying a potter should only fire with wood, not electric or gas; or a quilter should only hand stitch, not use a sewing machine.

Cheers,

Hi Frank,

Here is the link to the program http://www.abc.net.au/tv/collectors/txt/s2099722.htm

As the only things Ive carved have been mandolin tops, backs and bridges, all with power tools and lots of sandpaper I wont comment on technique,

Sebastiaan

Thanks for the link Sebastiaan. You would be a "luthier", then.
Anybody prepared to classify themselves as sandpaper-free "carvers" or claiming to be carvers even if they use sandpaper? Otherwise, Andy has pretty much rationalised the way we all bow to the inevitable...

Originally Posted by Frank&Earnest

Thanks for the link Sebastiaan. You would be a "luthier", then.
Anybody prepared to classify themselves as sandpaper-free "carvers" or claiming to be carvers even if they use sandpaper?

Me!-I consider myself a carver ( and I'm almost a pro, since a fair part of my income is made on carving), and i'll use watever I can-what about a plunge router?-(my favorite tool ).Then, the sanding-and an awful lot of it - was , and still is an inevitable step before applying gold leaf..and it's still carving. Anyway, I don't think the important thing is what you call yourself, it's what you do-and why not be both carver and sculptor? One of the greatests craftsmen of the french Art-Noveau style-a carver, furniture designer& maker, ...you name it-he did it!, when asked about his job used to say "I'm a carpenter"...Here, I did sand this piece, and I really believe it's better this way:

Artesano,

I have to ask, do you use a gesso before laying the gold leaf? Lovely piece of work!

Apols for the hijack guys. Frank, to be honest wannabe luthier is much more appropriate, luthier implies accomplishment.

Sebastiaan

Originally Posted by Sebastiaan56

Frank, to be honest wannabe luthier is much more appropriate, luthier implies accomplishment.

Sebastiaan

You are too honest! Self deception is so much more common and rewarding... But you are right, we should acknowledge the difference between the amateurs like us and the accomplished (not necessarily "professional" in the sense of making a living with it) like Artesano.


Artesano, beautiful work, and good point about definitions!
Am I understanding you correctly, if I say that you lean towards a different distinction, that is according to the product: sculpture = object of intrinsic beauty with no other function, carving = decoration of object with another main function?

If this is so, would then the person doing it either be a sculptor or a decorator, while carver, like turner, for example, would only indicate a specialised worker using mainly a specific tool?

Because we need multiple techniques to complete a sculpture or a decorated item, as Andy so clearly explained and you confirmed, is it a good idea to limit ourselves by identifying ourselves with only one of them, albeit the main one? "Plunge routerer" does not really sound good, does it?

So Andy IMHO is right, if we call ourselves carvers only for the association with an elite of skilled craftsmen, we have an obligation to maintain the purity of the skill, otherwise we are using the name under false pretences.

Traditionally, the carver would give the piece to the gilder to finish, if it had to be a gilt piece. You can always change hats and say that it was Artesano the gilder who used the sandpaper to finish the piece provided by Artesano the pure carver . (Or Artesano the plunge routerer?)

Originally Posted by Frank&Earnest

Thanks for the link Sebastiaan. You would be a "luthier", then.
Anybody prepared to classify themselves as sandpaper-free "carvers" or claiming to be carvers even if they use sandpaper? Otherwise, Andy has pretty much rationalised the way we all bow to the inevitable...

I've done lots of carving where sand paper wasn't needed. I've also done heaps more where sandpaper was essential. I've recently started carvng a pedistal out of a red gum and there is no way I can even get one flute smooth and free of very minor imperfections so I have to sand. Out of 12 flutes I could only carve one were I didn't have to change direction ever 10mm or so and that one I still had to change direction about every 50mm. The wood is just too difficult and brittle to carve cleanly. And I still have to attempt a bunch of acanthus leaf - I maybe rethinking that one though. Where as a clean pine or mahogany is a dream to carve, the shavings peal off like butter. You can even go against the grain quite easily without risk of tearout. Fir is a difficult wood to carve but because I've chipped away at a lot of it I've got pretty good with it. But I'm hopeless on others like this red gum.

If you stick to only the real good carving woods and those you're really familiar with I can easily see what that guy is saying but once you venture outside that I would think that it would be very difficult to not use some sort of abrasive or riffler to clean things up at least till you had figured out the characteristics of that medium.

I reckon sculpting is forming a sculpture out of a material that is maliable, i.e. clay

Originally Posted by Sebastiaan56

Artesano,

I have to ask, do you use a gesso before laying the gold leaf? Lovely piece of work!
Sebastiaan

Sebastian, I have no idea about using gesso and gold leaf-other persons do that; this particular work will be stained and varnished-again, others will do it.

F&E-some good cuestions there!- afraid my level of English is not good enough to respond, and then, i dont have the answers...My belief is, you dont have to limit yourself by a definition-I'm a cabinet/furniture maker by trade, carver because I like it, wannabe sculptor...Sometimes "all my Cristmases come together"....(was this the exact saying?) -thumbnail Nº2, sometimes I'm just a "plunge routerer" ( Nº3)

....and how would you define the craftsman who did this piece of Art-Nouveau furniture?(Nº1)-was he a carver, cabinet-maker, designer,a sculptor?..:

Hi Artensano,
Good to have your input, and very nice carving you've done. Are any of the other photos of your work?

Originally Posted by Artesano

...and how would you define the craftsman who did this piece of Art-Nouveau furniture?(Nº1)-was he a carver, cabinet-maker, designer,a sculptor?..:

All of the above, and an inspired one! What was his name, I'd like to see more of his work...Guillimarde or something??

Cheers,

Thanks, Andy Mac.Don't now the name of that particular craftsman, found this piece looking for "art-nouveau furniture" in the Google. The best furniture makers of the period were Eugene Vallin, Hector Guimard, Luis Majorelle...you'll like their work, i'm sure. The architecture of that time is also worth looking at:

http://www.rondom1900.nl/knoppenpagina.html

Originally Posted by Artesano

...
....and how would you define the craftsman who did this piece of Art-Nouveau furniture?(Nº1)-was he a carver, cabinet-maker, designer,a sculptor?..:

I would just call him "bloody good" and by the way you are not half bad yourself

Hhmmmmm....I would say....I am BOTH!!
Sometimes I am a sculptor...sometimes I am a carver
Maybe the difference is how far from the piece the sandpaper falls when it slips out of your hand??

Originally Posted by mobjack68

Hhmmmmm....I would say....I am BOTH!!
Sometimes I am a sculptor...sometimes I am a carver
Maybe the difference is how far from the piece the sandpaper falls when it slips out of your hand??

Interesting comment. So, when do you consider yourself a sculptor and not a carver, and viceversa?