Thread: Star's Sharpening Journey.

What can I do with a skew? Some shaping and sharpening notes.

When I want to make a big V-shaped cut, I use the fat Moor knife to drag a stop cut along the line. Next, I push a skew along one side then the other to make the shape.

The pair of skews in the upper right came from LV, sharpened at 20 degrees and nearly carving sharp. 1K, then 4K water stones, then honing on the strop. They really hold an edge.

Some Pfeil skews, the 1S/25e was nearly a waste of money. Far and away too big to push without brute force.

The right hand pair of dark-handled NAREX skews came from LV sharpened at 25 degrees. Not expensive and very, very good steel. But, 25 degrees is a pretty fat angle to push wood open at. Hard work as I knew what 20 degrees was like. So, I scrubbed them down on oil stones to 20 degrees, then the water stones, then the strop. Oh my! Nice.

So I bought a second pair, the ones on the left. See how the RH one is shorter and square? I decided that I wanted a 12mm stop chisel ( I have a 1/8).
a) with a regular grinder running at 3600rpm, I slowly and carefully squared off the end!
b) with my angle card in place, I used a stationary disk sander for 10 degrees each side, black felt marker all the way. Note: I get to use the grinder/sander stuff in the diamond willow furniture shop because I cleaned up and sharpened about $1,200 worth of Sorbey lathe tools. He bought them in an estate sale. Deceased owner #1 had no idea about sharpening.
c) back home, I used my oil stones to finish the bevels.
d) water stones then strop and I have a very good stop chisel.

I came on here this morning just to explain a few things I had said. But Robson has said it all for me.

Because we have some history together I think he understands my journey better then I and can explain it extremly well. The great thing about Robson and Whittling too is that they have first hand exposure to both cultures North America and Australia so they understand the different approaches.

I have nobody to ask for help personally, my information has had to come from books and the internet and then long hours in the shop trying to get to the next level.

But for a beginner this is my starting Point.

STAR'S NUMBER 1 RULE.

KNOW WHAT SHARP IS AND HAVE A REFERENCE TOOL NEARBY.

Crooked knives are another matter. The shape of the blade, the sweep, is a form very much favored by Pacific Northwest Native wood carvers. Lee Valley sells a bunch of blades (you make your own handles, far too many personal preferences there). Used for relatively rough work & shaping, 15 degrees works well. I really like the progressive sweep, tightens up right into the little scorp thing at the end. They work well, held in my hands, palms up. I use wrist motion, pulling the edge towards me. . . . push strokes are hard to do and less controllable. Works very well by pushing on the unsharpened back of the scorp part with my thumb.

For me, I started with a left & right pair of Mora (Sweden) #171 Equus hook knives. Very popular with farriers. Any place that stocks horse tack & parts should have them. Not terribly sharp at 30 degrees and not the best steel.
a) clamp the handle to the bench and paint the bevel with black felt marker again. All the motions are out over the edge with my elbows locks against my sides, one more time.
b) chalk up a chain saw file, make a 15 degree angle card and file the edge back.
c) as STAR has mentioned, there are devout followers of the sharpening method using various grades of sandpaper. Wrapping first 800 then 1500 grit W&D around a stick, I finished the edges. Scrubbed a stick with the green honing bar and gave the new edges a lick and a promise.
d) last but not least, I drag the flat underside of the blade on flat 1500 grit.

They work well enough that I bought a second pair.

The blade with the 18" bent handle began it's life as a Mora #188 double-edged hook knife. I cut the hook off with a Dremel. Filed both bevels to 15 degrees. Liberated the blade from the stock handle and made my own.

I usually split WRC ouit of larger blocks and the surfaces only ever need to be smooth enough to transfer a drawing. Going to be all carved up anyway! The planer knife is a dream to use, both pull and push strokes, the changing sweep gets me over bumps and hollows.

These days, I give those blades a swipe with 1500 grit paper wrapped around a stick and start carving. That's it.

Originally Posted by Robson Valley

How do I sharpen carving gouges and knives?

I believe the key is to maintain the same sharpening angle throughout the whole process, no matter where you need to start. I can't judge angles well at all. I have drawn angles on cards and to this very day, the correct card stands by all steps in my process.

I paint black felt marker on the bevel. As it comes off, I can see exactly where the metal is coming off.
Stones or strop, all the same.
Gouges, chisels and skews first.
I stand up. Left hand on the tool handle, right hand on the metal shank. I match the tool angle to the card (here = 20 degrees). I intend to start at one corner of the gouge and spin the gouge to the other corner in the length of the stone/strop. I lock my elbows to my sides and make a pull stroke. Next pull stroke starts with the corner of the gouge that I just ended with.
Stop chisels and skews are just straight pulls.

How many times? Depends on what you need to do. Use a "try" stick, the end of mine is somewhere in these pictures. Only one that I've ever had.
Same # of strokes in each direction, I do maybe 5 or 6.
On to the strop, another 5 or 6. Touch up the inside and make a few cuts in the stick.

Carving knives.
Six degrees each face for a 12 degree total included bevel. It's about equal to the thickness of the blade. Flexcut, Pfeil, a custom Brandant knife and my favorite, the ugly looking big Moor chip knife with the goofy-looking plastic handle.

Funny, I realize that I like to hold knives in my right hand for sharpening! I lay the blade on the sharpening surface. I press down on the blade with 2 fingertips of my other hand. Lock my elbows to my sides and pull.

Here's the point at which I suspect STAR ran into grief. When I get to the end of the pull stroke STOP. Lift the knife straight up and get ready to do the other face. Every time you pull the knife up off the surface, it gets rotated a little and the real bevel, really at the edge, gets rounded off, like 30 degrees.

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My next post was about why the more I used the sharpening stone the blunter my knife became.

My friend Robson, knows exactly where my journey is going and he is spot on. What I was doing in the early stages of my sharpening was unknowingly rolling the knife at the end of the stoke and infact rounding the bevel.

This sharpening can become very frustrating and when that happens I find for me it is best to walk away and have a cup of coffee. Fortunately, I do not have to stop that often now but old habits keep creeping in and a lot of times I have to stop and rethink what I am trying to achieve.

That is why I like to have my own set of Rules based on areas that I know I struggle with.

Pete


STAR"S RULE NUMBER 2.

At the end of the stroke, lift the knife off the sharpening stone or whatever before turning it over so you do not round the bevel.

One last kick at the can.

Years back, a master machinist gave me a little gauge. The original purpose, in part, was to measure the tip angles on drill bits. They should be different for different materials. I did not know that.

How do I know what angles should be on tool edges?
Ask them. Moor & Flexcut told me = 12 degrees.
Pfeil doesn't try to hide the fact = gouges are 20 degrees.
Porsche tried to hide the bevel angle information on his kitchen knives! Even the "UBER-SECRET" sharpening stone! When you enlarge the catalog picture and the stone says KING and you can read 4000 on the side, what are you supposed to think?

The drill bit tip angle measuring gizmo. That's how I got the Sorbey lathe tools fixed up so quickly. The original bevels were not so badly buggered up that I couldn't take a bunch of measurements. That's how I learned that the Mora hook knives were 30 degrees.

Leonard Lee's book = A Practical Guide to Sharpening. It's OK, but he's had to be all things to all people and router bits are not a part of this picture. I'll guess you will be better off here.

So, here are some little shop tools. angle measuring tool, a depth gauge, pin drill, trammel points (gigantic compass things) that fit a meter stick. Brush and dental picks.
BECAUSE GOOD WOOD CARVING TOOLS ARE NOT MEANT FOR PRYING CHIPS OUT OF CORNERS.
I work on a lot of curved surfaces, the dress-maker's flexible tape measure is handy. Grandad's square & dividers. My 40 degree knot-buster chisels. Couple of scratch markers.

If you don't like any of the suggested angles or methods, so be it. I'm proud of the fact that I got this figured out and the proof is in the fact that I can do this over and over again.

Thanks again Robson.

You can see why a beginner might struggle in the early stages with information overload.

Because I knew nothing everything Robson has said would have been added to my memory bank plus a multitude of others thoughts as well. I think it all finished up as a dog's breakfast because I had all this information .

Lately I have been rereading a lot of the books I have in my Library in my office. Apart from Woodworking and carving I have a lot of Business books. One that caught my eye when I was researching a subject not woodworking related was about the Paretto Principle.

You know, Mr Paretto was an Italian Economist who amongst other things worked out while researching the distrubution of Wealth in England over 100 years ago that approx 80% of the wealth was in the hands of 20% of the population.

Others have taken that a lot father and applied it to life in general. I am trying to apply it to my woodworking. eg Of all the tools I use I find that over 80 % of the work is done by 20% of my tools and equipment.

So, because I am short of space am trying to keep things I use often handy and others stored away, where I can get to them but where they take up less valuable floor, bench and wall space.

I have a designated Carving bench and back wall where all my carving gear is kept, But I guess I only use 20% usually so I can reduce the clutter on it by putting what is not used that often in containers to free up more space.

One thing I have found when sharpening or anything else is. That when I sharpen I like to have a clean area around me devoid of clutter, something that is not always easy to do. So I guess my next rule is the Paretto principle.

STAR'S RULE NUMBER 3.

THE PARETTO PRINCIPLE. 80% of what we do is governed by 20% of imputs. Try to have things close at hand that are used often and put the rest in containers to free up space and have a tidy work area.

Remember, this is my journey and these are the things I struggle with and I know affect my work and thinking. You may have other issues, maybe Mr Paretto can help you also but in a different way especially if space is an issue,

Pete

I agree. Perhaps some have noticed that I made no mention of V-tools. Simple explanation is that while I have several in different sizes and angles, I don't need to use them. The mechanical properties/grain of Western Red Cedar mean that in a curve, one wing is cutting with the grain and the other is jamming into it.

I got enormous satisfaction from changing one tool into another that I needed.
I've found that my ability to sharpen kitchen knives is useful, I like to cook a great variety of things.

Carving tool storage.
The canvas tool rolls have pockets of different sizes. Small tools have small handles (What? Did my hands shrink all of a sudden?)
I make my tool rolls from 1.5 legs of a blown-out pair of denim jeans. Nice shop lady sews them up for $5 each.

Dang. Forgot the pictures.

I am a bit hesitant to jump in at this point because I'm not sure if Star and RV are finished. I don't want to come into the middle of their discourse, but since nothing has happened on here for a while, I'll risk it.

Firstly, thanks to both of you gentlemen for a very thorough and honest explanation of what you have leaned about sharpening and being willing to share it. I said right at the beginning of this thread that discussing sharpening can be a bit like discussing religion or politics... everybody has their own thoughts on the matter and sometimes they defend these ideas rather...uh... vigerously!

I'd like to add an overview here if I might. I think the reason that there are so many opinions about sharpening is that it has so many factors in the process. I'd like to suggest that there are at least 5 factors, each with its own spectrum of variables that influence how well your tools will cut the material you are carving (the definition of sharp).

1. The steel in the tool. This can vary quite a bit. In general, the harder the steel the better it holds an edge BUT the more brittle it is. Thus tools designed for cutting in straight lines (saw blades, exacto cutters, plane blades ect) can be a fair bit harder than tools which regularly get other twisting forces applied to them, (like carving knives). There are thousands of steel formulas designed for a wide variety of applications. If you are buying your tool some of this 'research' is done for you. If you are making your tool, especially out of some recycled steel, you need to be aware of this. (This is a whole discussion in itself. The publishers of 'Blade' magazine make a very good living with it!)

2. The tool itself. As RV has so amplely illustrated, there are a LOT of tools out there for doing a lot of different things. The design of the tool is one of the variables that determine what one needs to do to achieve 'sharp'. This includes variations within a specific class of tool. Knives for instance, come in a wide variety of blade shapes, each designed to do specific things.

3. The WAY IN WHICH THE TOOL IS USED. I've highlighted this one because it gets overlooked a lot. A carving chisel works differently when pushed by hand or smacked with a mallet. It works even more differently when used in a whittling context where both the work and the tool are held. Blades in particular come to the fore in whittling. How you choose to use them and the demands placed upon that methodology by the project that you are undertaking all influence how effective your tool will be at cutting what you want to cut, the way you want to cut it... (again, the definition of 'sharp').

4. The material you are carving. I say 'material' because its not always wood. (golf balls being a case in point here..). Materials vary in hardness. I know that I have to make significant adjustments to how I sharpen tools depending on what material I'm trying to cut. If I 'trick out' an edge for poplar, lime, huon pine or jelutong, and then use it on a eucalypt or accacia, I know I'm going to be in a world of disappointment.

5. The shape and angle of the bevel. This one is really a 'dependant' factor while the others are causal factors. But it is a variable so I'll include it here. The previous 4 factors make a huge difference to the final outcome of this variable. Learning to put bevels on a tool and then to hone an edge is what most of us consider to be the 'sharpening process'. What I am trying to point out, is that you need a broader understanding of all the variables in what you specifically want to do if you want to get this last factor right FOR THE CONDITIONS YOU ARE CURRENTLY WORKING WITH. For instance, flat bevels are considered absolutely essential by some and to be avoided at all costs by others...all dependant on the other four factors listed above.

And that is what all of my rambleing comes down to.... To know and understand what the steel in the tool is and how you intend to use it on the specific material you have in mind... all effect how you bevel and hone to get the optimum efficientcy out of your efforts.

Controversy inevitably arrises when individuals forget that other carvers may have applications that necessitate a different variable on any or all of the above factors which inevitably results in a different sharpening methodology.

This is why I am continually emphasising the importance of critial evaluation of other ideas and methods IN RELATION TO WHAT YOU AS AN INDIVIDUAL ARE DOING. Take on board what works for you and either discard, or file away, the rest. I say 'file away' because, over time, your interests will evolve and it may be that sometime in the future, some of those ideas and techniques that were not applicable at the time, suddenly become so.

That's my two bobs worth. I'll be happy to get more specific regarding methods etc provided its understood that I'm talking about what works in my context. I make no guarentees about it being the best way for others.

BRAVO, Whittling! Wonderful summary that I could not have ever done. There are so many things, beyond stuffing a gouge into a chunk of wood. Have to keep trying.
As we keep bouncing experiences off each other, there must be concepts that new carvers can take away.
Material = after years, I finally got the thought in my head this winter past, that I was, at long last, learning the wood aka Western Red Cedar. That. to me, matters as much as the Frog Dish.

Sharpening puzzle/problem.

STAR mentioned this and so did I. In parts, the issue can seem so disconnected and I failed to address it.

STAR made a remark about holding the wood carving tool up to a strong light and looking upon the exact edge. Yeah, so?
In my remarks about when to sharpen, I pointed out that you might see a "scratch" in every gouge cut, like a pin scratch. I drew the conclusion that I had hit something really hard, like a sand grain.
Why that?
If you were to hold the business edge of a carving-sharp tool up to a strong light, you should see nothing, there is nothing to reflect the light.
However. When I hit a sand grain, it crumples the edge. That makes a flat spot. The flat spot will reflect strong light like a spark! It's like a star in the night. DANG!

If you carve in featureless white woods like basswood, jelutong, linden or aspen, there's a good chance that you won't notice the issue until it's really bad. Anybody that carves darker woods (and I think that Huon is dark enough) will see this straight off.
Now what?
First plan is to try to grind out the ding with the 1K water stone. You get to keep looking at the edge in strong light to see if you got rid of the crumple.
Suppose that didn't work.
You can back up and try again on a fine grit oil stone. It's more aggressive and will surely take off more metal. Keep looking in the light.

I have a Pfeil 5/35 gouge. Big one. Not cheap. Seems to have been from a shirtty batch of steel ( a wood carver in Germany believes that's the problem.) It banged up very badly doing the shaping of the fronts and backs of my big pair of Raven wood carvings. At the very same time, a 9/15 never showed a mark no matter how hard I hit it woth a 30 oz mallet. HA ! painted black, nobody will notice. True, but I might want to use that gouge again?
The 5/35 was really beat to hello. 4 or 5 big scratch marks.

The solution:
Swallow your guts and get your heart out of your mouth. Stand the 5/35 vertically on an oil stone and scrub the edge off square, beyond all the sparks. In the light, you will see a uniform line of reflected light. Then you go through the rest of the process at 20 degrees to get your tool back to carving sharp.
It can be done. I read about this, never believing that I'd ever be faced with doing it..

[QUOTE=Whittling;1520659]I am a bit hesitant to jump in at this point because I'm not sure if Star and RV are finished. I don't want to come into the middle of their discourse, but since nothing has happened on here for a while, I'll risk it.


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No personal dialogue going on here Whittling jump right in like everybody else should. It is just that Robson has the uncanny knack of understanding what I am saying, no easy task. and the fact that our paths have crossed many times before.

With both you and Robson here this thread should have something for everybody. I hope others jump in also and do not think it is a personal chat between RV and myself. We can do that by PM and he and I have and do often. and not necessarily about carving.

Pete

I agree. This sharpening thing has to be a round-table discussion to be truly productive.
STAR & I have a little history but that should never stand in the way of the broader discussion needed here.
I carve a North American soft wood, Western Red Cedar (Thuja plicata). I've done some alder, birch and aspen. I have an inventory of some other woods (red oak, mahogany, Alaskan yellow cedar, pine) but I can't contribute experience carving with Australian woods. Whittling can.

Fantastic stuff! I've got nothing done digesting all of this information,
Thanks and keep it coming