Thread: Star's Sharpening Journey.

Pics
- first two (embarassingly) one that I have "sharpened"
- the next the working edge of a sharp chisel, that was pretty good before I ever got to it
- the edge of a dull chisel

Cheers,
Paul

Thanks for that Paul. The idea of some sort of magnification device is great. Its particularly good to be able to see in find detail, what the results are of one's efforts on a stone or grinder. The pattern in photo 2 shows either more time spent with the gouge against the stone at its appex than at either tine, or a change of angle at the appex as the gouge was rotated from tine to tine during the sharpening 'stroke'. Its an extremely common problem when starting out.

You will need to find some kind of honing compound as it represents the difference between 'kitchen' sharp and 'carving' sharp. Lots of brands around and all work much the same, but I prefer a 'paste' type because its easier to apply to leather strops, (it doesn't require friction to apply). For wheels, if you put it on a wheel while it is stationary and let it dry before you use it (20 minutes or so) it stays put, and you don't get the waste typical of friction applications.

Not home for long, another week on the road going west instead of east.

Paul: if you gave me that U-shaped gouge to "sharpen," here's the steps in what I would do:

1. Scrub the entire end off, square to the tool axis, with an oil stone. Just far enough to see a square end, no further.
2. With a 20 degree angle card for reference, reform the entire 20 degree bevel. Black felt marker all the way. Not concern yet about the "edge." I slowly spin the gouge from one corner to the other in one pull stroke pass. Next pass starts with the corner that I just ended at.
3. Fine oil stone or about 600 grit paper & oil (I don't care what the manufacturer says), to get a keen edge in the light. 600 grit on a dowel to gradually work away the wire edge, if I get one = MUST stay flat on the inside of the gouge.
4. 1K then 4K water stones, watching in the light all the time, more felt marker to keep things even.
5. Hone on a strop to a mirror finish.
= = =
I read that you have a "practice block". Bravo. Same function as my "try stick."

Originally Posted by Whittling

Thanks for that Paul. The idea of some sort of magnification device is great. Its particularly good to be able to see in find detail, what the results are of one's efforts on a stone or grinder. The pattern in photo 2 shows either more time spent with the gouge against the stone at its appex than at either tine, or a change of angle at the appex as the gouge was rotated from tine to tine during the sharpening 'stroke'. Its an extremely common problem when starting out.

You will need to find some kind of honing compound as it represents the difference between 'kitchen' sharp and 'carving' sharp. Lots of brands around and all work much the same, but I prefer a 'paste' type because its easier to apply to leather strops, (it doesn't require friction to apply). For wheels, if you put it on a wheel while it is stationary and let it dry before you use it (20 minutes or so) it stays put, and you don't get the waste typical of friction applications.

Thanks for the replies. Work has been full-on recently so there's been a distinct lack of forum time

That gouge was one of the first I attacked. I had heard about the squaring off the end from the Chris Pye video, but I was just aiming at getting down to a sharp edge at that stage. I knew if I squared it off there would be a couple of fat flat walls there that I would have to get rid of, and my mental constitution couldn't stand that prospect at that stage

It was just pleasing to produce an edge that cut rather than crushed!

I was also experimenting with the stones I have here to settle on what worked best for rough shaping and finer finishing. The Wood Show is on here from Friday, so I hope I can sort out the stropping side of things then.
Might even look at some of the 3M plastic stuff if someone has it there, but I'm not too keen on the idea of them, even if they are more efficient.

Cheers,
Paul

Originally Posted by Robson Valley

Not home for long, another week on the road going west instead of east.

Paul: if you gave me that U-shaped gouge to "sharpen," here's the steps in what I would do:

1. Scrub the entire end off, square to the tool axis, with an oil stone. Just far enough to see a square end, no further.
...
I read that you have a "practice block". Bravo. Same function as my "try stick."

Again, I appreciate your reply. I did square off some of the other gouges as I got into the sharpening ... over about a week Once I had determined the best stones to use, shaping the bevel wasn't too much of an issue. I have also become a lot better at free-handing on the (electric) grinder this year, but I found the little hand-spun grinder I got semi-recently was very good for careful shaping some of the chisels too.

I'm guessing your "try stick" doesn't have all that much missing ... just a few little cuts each time 'cos you know what you are aiming for. This is my "practice block" ... which not long ago just had a very messy 3" by 2" kinda hollow at the end of it ... but as the sharpening got a bit better and the feeling of carving into it got addictive ...

I don't know what wood it is - there was a bunch of it on the roadside in the industrial area many months ago - obviously offcuts. It is very light.

Thanks again,
Paul

Paul
I believe that a carver can't know what "carving sharp" is until you carve some wood.
I practive making feathers, etc in my "try stick". Couple of stabs with a freshly honed edge = I know if I did a decent job or not.

Gouge shape: Tradition has the end of a gouge, say a 9/15, square to the axis of the tool shaft. Some carvers want the wings, the shoulders, the top corners, swept either back or forward.. . . . . depends on the angle you go into the wood.

If you go into the wood at 15-30 degrees to hit a vertical wall, the shoulders will hit the wall first and leave marks because they are ahead of the bottom part of the edge. I've done that, it was a lot of work to shave off the marks.

I might just buy another 9/15, maybe a 8/12 and rebevel the shoulders back 20-30 degrees. For what I carve, could be useful.

I can say this because I am so confident that I can rebevel and sharpen carving tools to get what I want, every time.

Believe me, it was not always as I claim!

That is a query I had.

Chris Pye makes a point of saying (in the video) that the 'wings' should be level across, 90o corners and sharp.

But I think I have also seen or read someone else say they wanted the wings rounded back (buy still sharp of course).
(It may have been one of the circa 1900 books available free online.)

Is it a personal thing?

Thanks,
Paul

Not personal but process.
a) Look at the edge of my Halibut Serving Platter (its own thread). There's the top flat surface all around, meant to represent the body.
b) The outer edge of that is 90 degrees, straight down. I set that line with a 1/12 stop chisel, got in no more than 2mm (hard wood) at a time.
c) Next, I went around with a 9/15 to begin to carve the fin rays, going straight in to the 90 degree body face.
d) I went around and around the fish, deepening the stop cut and coming back to it with the 9/15.
e) By about the 3rd time around, I had the 9/15 canted up some 20+ degrees to cut straight to the flat body edge. That puts the top shoulder corners of the gouge ahead of the bottom of it and the shoulders hit the vertical part of the body. Many semicircular cuts into the body (shaved off with a skew.)
f) the other realization is that the bottom of the gouge cannot finish the horizontal cut because the top corners are already into the vertical wood. My temptation is to try to pry the last of the wood out at the intersection. Tough lesson learned = that is sure to wreck an otherwise perfectly good gouge/bevel edge. Need much smaller tools and sort of pick at it. Tedious to say the least when you realize that I had about 100cm of edge to work on that way.
= = =
If I had another 9/15 with the corners swept back 20+ degrees, the gouge would have met the vertical part of that body part without leaving a mark.

Nice reply there RV, very well explained .
What you say makes sense and is very true.

Thanks, schaf.
The shape of the gouge wings is a subject only briefly touched on in an English wood carving text (_not_ C. Pye). I wondered for years why a back sweep could be useful.
Now I know, by example, that every once in a while, that could be useful.

With the gouge (20 degree bevel) lifted up just 20 degrees, the cutting edge should be sliding along the surface. Another 5 degrees up and it should be cutting for sure. So if I buy another gouge and grind the wings back to 60 from the factory 90, it should be useful. At a 25 degree lift for carving, the wing corners will be set back another 5 degrees and should not hit anything. Possibly a Pfeil 9/12.

These last few posts are a brilliant example of the pitfalls associated with the 'right' way to shape and sharpen tools. Sorry.. but there is no 'right' way. There are simply too many variables. Each sharpening 'formula' is designed to cope with some, but not all of them.

The basic formula, well explained by RV and Star, will get one going, but time, experience, the project and the materials you use will reveal alternate, and better ways to achieve your carving goals IN A VARIETY PARTICULAR CIRCUMSTANCES.

These last few posts illustrate that as well as anything I've seen.

Every time someone reveals a 'formula' I like to look at it carefully to glean what I can apply... now... and for possible future circumstances. It doesn't neccessarily follow that I will change my basic 'formula', but it might if it applys to what I'm doing.

In my experience, arguments arrise most often when one individulal (usually of limited experience) will insist that their 'formula' is the only 'correct' one. Ironically, it probably is... for them and their particular cirucumstances. Their inability to see beyond their own circumstances says more about themselves than it does about the 'ignorance' of the person who disagrees with them.

Thanks, Whittling. Your summarizations are nicely conclusive.
I hoped that my ponderings about gouge wing sweep was close enough to fit into this thread. A sharpening thing, yes?
I had to learn a long time ago not to fall in love with anything I do/have done. If I carved Wood Spirits in Cottonwood bark for 30 years. If I carved Santa ornaments in basswood for 30 years. That is dogma that you can step in. Jeezlies! I can't get my crap together for long enough to carve the same thing twice (but for the pair of big Ravens.) But then again, when I see things in the wood, there's very little choice.

In this carving environment, like anywhere else, I stick by a quote attributed to Gaileo:
"Never refuse an old wine or a new idea."
The late American actor, Steve McQueen, once said: "there are no shortcuts to anywhere worth going."
When I get home, I'll cook up some illustrations so everyone can see what I mean when I say " I spin the gouge on a pull stroke."

I got 2 PM asking how to sharpen a U-shaped gouge with flat abrasives.
OK. Here we go
1. This is what I do. There are at least 5-6 other sharpening systems which all work.
Pick one. Start there. Hindsight will tell you what to do next.
2. Grit Size of Abrasives: there is a European grading system, there is an American grading system and there is a Japanese grading system for water stones in particular.
No, they are NOT THE SAME. You figure it out.
For example, the American 800 grit has an average particle size of 12 microns (micrometers). The range is 5 - 30.
3. "Honing" and "Stropping" appear to be synonyms, equivalent terms, depending on the school you went to and where you live.
= = =
Here's the range of sharpening stuff in my kit. Please note that everything has its own cage and everything is clamped HARD to the bench in use.
Files on the left. Then some oil stones that I use regular automotive motor oil with. Judging only by the "feel," I'll guess 60, 100, and 200 grits. The moronic manufacturers have no respect for your intelligence so they won't specify grit sizes in anyone's system.
Next, a Lee Valley combo water stone, 1K and 4K grits, the 1K is the chocolate of the slip stone.
Last is my big strop, just a strip of leather glued to a stick. The cute little strops come later.
= = = =
Question is, where do you start and where do you stop in that sequence?
1.I confess that I do use it all, depending on circumstances (tool edge damage, etc).
Hindsight tells me that I often start at a grit size too small to do the sharpening efficiently. That means that it takes so long that I realize that I should back up a step.
2. What is that tool expected to do? I have some "knot-buster" chisels. They get hit very hard with a 30oz mallet. They get a scrub on the oil stones at 40 degrees and that's it.

Time to sharpen a gouge, #5 sweep, 35mm wide. I demonstrate with a 4K water stone so that you can see what happens. This is such an unusually poor piece of Pfeil steel that I should start on the (brown) 1K water stone.
The stone is soaked in water 30 minutes to overnight. See that the cage is clamped to the edge of the bench? I hold the tool handle in my left hand with my right hand on the tool shank. See the 20 degree angle card? (I'm hopeless at estimating angles). That card will sit there for the whole process.
Now, I begin by elevating the tool to match the card. I hold my elbows tight against my sides. I start on the RH top corner/edge/shoulder (whatever you like to call it). As I sway/lean backwards, I will rotate the gouge counterclockwise so that I finish that stroke at the LH corner.
#2 stroke begins at the top of the stone with the LH corner to start. I rotate the axis of the gouge clockwise to finish on the RH corner.
I hope that you can see that I made 4? passes in each direction, they leave a very distinctive X-pattern on the stone.
= = =
I show you these steps on the 4K water stone as they are easy to see the metal tracks (black). NO MATTER where I start or finish, my movement pattern and the angle card are the same.