Thread: 130mm Grey ironbark

Hi Ken, secret nailing & top nailing is fine as the secret nailer will pull the joints in tight then a few top nails to keep it down & limit cupping.

If you're going to lay T&G on top of T&G it must be laid perpendicular to the existing flooring otherwise you will get movement following the floor beneath.

The problem you will have is that you will be running the new flooring parallel with the joists so you wont really be able to nail into the joists. What you will need to do for a bit of extra support (as nails only into Cypress wont keep Ironbark from moving or squeaking) is run a bead of Bostik Ultraset Glue say every 200mm apart in the centre of each row of nails.
This will keep the floor nicely held down and it will stop any squeaking.

The Cypress floor will also need to be nailed tight in any loose spots and any old finish sanded off, it should be level sanded prior to laying on top of.

With 6" boards and this crazy weather you must acclimatise your boards before you lay them, at least 2 weeks in the rooms where they'll be laid and make sure every single board has it's top face open to the atmospheric conditions of that room.

When I used to sell & lay T&G flooring everyone would whine and complain about how difficult it was to sacrifice 2 weeks worth of comfort to ensure a lifetime investment would work properly and I wouldn't argue with them but surely enough after a few months they would ring abusing me trying to get a warranty claim on their wood cupping or gapping or splitting and all I could offer them was a big "I told you so".

A few things you should expect too - the floor will get gaps over time, it's impossible to prevent and if you use polyurethane you'll get all sorts of problems later.

Thanks for your comments Missionaryman. Is it necessary to do both secret nail and top nail in this case? Or which is the best method?

Ken

Originally Posted by Ken Swensen

Thanks for your comments Missionaryman. Is it necessary to do both secret nail and top nail in this case? Or which is the best method?

Ken

secret nailing alone is not sufficient for 6" boards, you'll need 2 top nails per point. You can either not secret nail at all and only top nail using a clamp or a mallet & chisel to pull the gaps out of the joints or secret nail to tighten up the gaps which is easier but considerably more expensive.

Originally Posted by missionaryman

Hi Ken, secret nailing & top nailing is fine as the secret nailer will pull the joints in tight then a few top nails to keep it down & limit cupping.

If you're going to lay T&G on top of T&G it must be laid perpendicular to the existing flooring otherwise you will get movement following the floor beneath.

The problem you will have is that you will be running the new flooring parallel with the joists so you wont really be able to nail into the joists. What you will need to do for a bit of extra support (as nails only into Cypress wont keep Ironbark from moving or squeaking) is run a bead of Bostik Ultraset Glue say every 200mm apart in the centre of each row of nails.
This will keep the floor nicely held down and it will stop any squeaking.

The Cypress floor will also need to be nailed tight in any loose spots and any old finish sanded off, it should be level sanded prior to laying on top of.

With 6" boards and this crazy weather you must acclimatise your boards before you lay them, at least 2 weeks in the rooms where they'll be laid and make sure every single board has it's top face open to the atmospheric conditions of that room.

When I used to sell & lay T&G flooring everyone would whine and complain about how difficult it was to sacrifice 2 weeks worth of comfort to ensure a lifetime investment would work properly and I wouldn't argue with them but surely enough after a few months they would ring abusing me trying to get a warranty claim on their wood cupping or gapping or splitting and all I could offer them was a big "I told you so".

A few things you should expect too - the floor will get gaps over time, it's impossible to prevent and if you use polyurethane you'll get all sorts of problems later.

I am considering the same thing, but I don't like the idea of changing the floor board orientation, am I better of removing the cypress pine boards? Would I still have to deal with the issue of skirting boards?
Zelk

You would Zelk.
You would also have the problem of extractin the old nails. This may be a difficult operation depending on the age and type of joists. The same factors will also effect your bility to nail down the new flooring. Aged hardwood is incredibly tough to nail into.

A nailgun could be used but you have the problem of rectangular shaped nail holes in the floorboards. If that doesn't bother you that is the way I would go.

Originally Posted by artme

You would Zelk.
You would also have the problem of extractin the old nails. This may be a difficult operation depending on the age and type of joists. The same factors will also effect your bility to nail down the new flooring. Aged hardwood is incredibly tough to nail into.

A nailgun could be used but you have the problem of rectangular shaped nail holes in the floorboards. If that doesn't bother you that is the way I would go.

Thanks Artme,
rather than extracting, maybe cut the nails with an angle grinder and hope than you don't nail into the pre-existing nails. My joists are pretty thick, about 180 by 180 mm, and spaced every 300mm, so that the only floor support is along the perimeter of the room.
I just don't understand why there is only the option of either 80 or 130 mm boards, why can't we get the same width (100mm) as the cypress pine boards?
Zelk

Originally Posted by zelk

Thanks Artme,
rather than extracting, maybe cut the nails with an angle grinder and hope than you don't nail into the pre-existing nails. My joists are pretty thick, about 180 by 180 mm, and spaced every 300mm, so that the only floor support is along the perimeter of the room.
I just don't understand why there is only the option of either 80 or 130 mm boards, why can't we get the same width (100mm) as the cypress pine boards?
Zelk

Talk to Boral - you can get 108mm finish boards and they're a fair bit cheaper than 130mm

Originally Posted by missionaryman

Talk to Boral - you can get 108mm finish boards and they're a fair bit cheaper than 130mm

If you could get 108mm ironbark boards or any other species, would they still have to be top nailed or could you get away with secret nailing them, mounted on clean joists and not over existing floor boards?
Zelk

Originally Posted by zelk

If you could get 108mm ironbark boards or any other species, would they still have to be top nailed or could you get away with secret nailing them, mounted on clean joists and not over existing floor boards?
Zelk

The standard specifies anything over 80mm should be top nailed, if it really bothered you then you could probably get away with secret nailing, Ultrasetting & one 50mm Brad on the face near the back edge of the board with no putty - the holes are almost invisible after finishing. I used this method on my Karri 125mm boards and people would not believe it was face nailed until I got down and pointed each hole out to them.

With a floor you really need to drop your expectations - it will never be a furniture grade finish, it will move after laying and lose that perfect mirror flat finish, it will scratch etc.

G'day.
You can install a new floor over an existing T&G floor with the boards running in the same direction.

If the old floor is 80mm boards and the new floor is 130mm. Then it will work fine.
If, however, you want an 80mm over an 80mm, forget it.

Ensure that the old floor is screwed down tight.
Glue and nail the new floor to the old. Ultraset adhesive.
If top nailing the new floor, you can use long nails and still pickup the joists under the old floor as well.

It has been done numerous times and is a common installation procedure.

Originally Posted by glock40sw

G'day.
You can install a new floor over an existing T&G floor with the boards running in the same direction.

If the old floor is 80mm boards and the new floor is 130mm. Then it will work fine.
If, however, you want an 80mm over an 80mm, forget it.

Ensure that the old floor is screwed down tight.
Glue and nail the new floor to the old. Ultraset adhesive.
If top nailing the new floor, you can use long nails and still pickup the joists under the old floor as well.

It has been done numerous times and is a common installation procedure.

What about if I have 100mm cypress pine boards, can I still put 130 ironbark over them?

My existing floor sags towards the middle as it is supported only at the wall ( very thick joists, closely spaced), will this be an issue using 130 mm boards?

What's the big issue with 'no guarrantee' if polyurethane is used on 130 mm boards?

Zelk

Please call me on 0425778713 for assistance on htis matter

Originally Posted by Ken Swensen

Hi, We have Cypress pine flooring approx 80mm wide.
We are looking to lay 130mm grey ironbark on this timber flooring

Is secret nailing followed by top nailing possible?


What would the procee for laying these boards be?

Thanks & appreciated

Ken

Zelk - Polyurethane is a rigid set finish (think - glue) that joins boards together in clusters and when there is movement these several boards move together as a panel hence the term "panelisation" and rather than a few small gaps between all the boards you get one big & unsightly gap every several boards.
Additionally the poly is such a strong bonding agent that it will cause boards to split along gum veins - even if it's select grade flooring with no visible gum veins on the surface.

Never finish a new floor with polyurethane - big mistake, in my experience in the claims department I have seen many brand new floors completely removed and replaced due to excessive splitting from poly finishes.

Always acclimatise a new floor an use a non bonding finish like Tung Oil to allow movement. The other major problem with poly on a floor is scratches - it's far more resilient to scratching than most other finished but when it does the scratch is very visible and non repairable. With most oil modified urethanes you can touch up inconspicuously.