Thread: An 18th century style Windsor chair.

My Windsor chair finally arrived here on Thursday 16th of October. I opened the crate with huge anticipation. I was utterly appalled by what I saw. Every component – with the possible exception of the back bow - is simply unacceptable.

Despite Carl telling me in one of our many emails "Since takeing the pictures, the chair has been taken apart fine sanded…" the whole chair is covered in deep ugly scratches and gouges which would necessitate many hours of reshaping and sanding to erase.



The turned parts exhibit fairly severe lathe tooling marks that in my opinion, illustrate gross incompetence on the lathe.





I question the practice of turning the back sticks in the first instance; the traditional method (and one which, as a professional Windsor chairmaker, I would have thought Carl would practice) of shaping the sticks is with a drawknife. Employing a drawknife eliminates the tear-out issue involved with turning such thin, whippy items.) If I were to sand out the marks, the spindles would end up misshapen and undersized for their respective holes, thereby weakening the chair.

I purposefully sent Carl a large, clear colour photo of the antique Windsor chair that I wished him to use as a model for my chair and I enquired at length if he had experience of making Windsor chairs with cabriole legs. Carl's response was "We are very familiar with cabriole legs, and have made many chairs with these attached…"
The cabriole legs that arrived are like none I've ever seen! The 'ankles' are decidedly tear-drop shaped (instead of circular) and the 'stands' are blended into the pad feet rather than having traditionally pronounced shoulders. The backs of the pad feet (where they meet the ankles) are an indescribable shape that really points to unfamiliarity with the form and making of cabriole legs.



The 'ears' are crudely nail-gunned to the tops of the legs with no thought as to fit whatsoever; there are ugly gaps and steps between many of the ears and legs, which leave them irretrievable. To top it all, the shaping around the ears and legs is simply atrocious!













More in next post...

The greatest disappointment of all is the seat. I was informed it would take some time to locate a suitable plank of elm for the seat which I didn't object to in the least and yet the seat Carl made has massive bark inclusions and faults, some, at the front left edge of the seat which he crudely filled with glue and sawdust. This seat was to be clear finished, not painted!





The seat itself is far too thick and the bottom edge has been routed with a round-over bit instead of the traditional hand chamfered edge which gives it the effect of being thinner and lighter than it actually is – it's one of the fundamental elements of a Windsor chair!

The hollowing of the seat is the most apparent example of ineptitude I have ever seen. I hunger after hand worked wood and accept the minor differences inevitable in handwork, but the dissimilarities between the shaping on one side of the seat versus the other are acute and highly amateurish to say the least.



Apart from being extremely poorly executed, the shaping doesn't remotely fill the dimensions of the seat; there's between 70-110mm of flat area in front of the spindles whereas traditionally there should only be a 25-40mm flat band before the dishing begins.



The knuckles on the front ends of the arms exhibit the worst carving I have ever seen in my thirty plus years in the antiques business. The wood has literally been torn asunder instead of being delicately carved with sharp chisels and gouges.



The volutes in both knuckles are angular and totally unsympathetic in their implementation. The carving has been so crudely performed that part of one knuckle has been split off. Only a few fragments have been roughly glued back, but there remains a large void and the whole area was not remotely tidied up and made presentable.



Apart from the fact that the arm bow was supposed to have been steam-bent from a single piece of yew, the two-piece sawn arm rest must have been cut freehand as the two halves are far from symmetrical.



The main arm supports have no tennons to locate them in the arm rest! Carl simply drilled holes for the addition of a single screw per support, but this is an area of huge pressure and duress as sitters raise and lower themselves in and out of the chair.



Screws have no place in an eighteenth century Windsor chair - or a copy thereof. Again, the absence of understanding of traditional Windsor chairmaking function, methods and procedures is astounding!

This is not the finely finished chair Carl promised me that only required assembling and polishing; over 90% of the chair needs to be remade! The only piece that is even close to being serviceable is the back bow (and even it has iron-staining and a clumsily glued and un-sanded split right on the top of the bow).

I approached Carl as a professional Windsor chairmaker, for a quality, hand made, traditional Windsor chair, but what I am left with is an extremely expensive rustic chair that is only fit for slapping some heavy paint on and relegating to the garden. I would be embarrassed to have this chair in my home. Even if I were to reshape and finish all the components to an acceptable degree, they would be so misshapen and out of proportion that the integrity of the chair's heritage would be lost.

I emailed Carl the instant I finished unwrapping the contents of the packing case (Thursday 16th of October) asking that he contact me ASAP to discuss the matter, but he didn't respond in his normally prompt manner. I sent the same message by airmail on Saturday and I've still heard nothing back from him.

It could be Carl's away, but being a business, I would have expected to receive an 'out of office' notification by return if he was absent from work. I tried phoning him, but with no luck. I shall try again shortly (we're ten hours ahead of GMT at present).

Geez Woodwould.

Looks a trifle on the rough side to be diplomatic.

I'm flat out until February, but could redo some parts if you wanted - the cab legs are the uncommon ones that not many are trained to do now. Let me know if you want me to do half a day no labour cost, elm & postage at cost.

Obviously, pursuing redress with the mfg would be the preferable option.

Should you choose to take up the offer, I wouldn't mind as it's been a while since I've done a cab foot - a chance to keep my eye in.


WHat I originally was going to say was our steam bending timbers - spotted gum was the timber of choice for bending, wasn't aware that blackwood bent well, Ian. Spotted gum may be a bit of a problem as it moves a fair bit with humidity changes (then again, so does elm...)

Cheers,

eddie

I gotta agree that that would be a major disappointment.

Somehow I can't see those parts as belonging to the assembled chair pictured previously. Even the seat looks different- although it looks to have filled areas on the front, the flats around the sides and back don't look anywhere near as wide as the pix of the one you received.

I'd like to believe that there was a packaging error and you've received a first month apprentice's practice pieces... but sadly I suspect not.

I hope Carl speedily rectifies the situation in a way that leaves you both satisfied. :fingers Xed: But I trust you'll pardon me if I don't hold my breath over it.

I think you've been very controlled in your assessment of the chair there Woodwould. I'd be livid with rage, but then you might be too. too.

I think I detect a LOT of disappointment, & just a HINT of controlled rage there, WW......?

Strewth - I know you have to be a bit less fussy on a commercial job but that is really RUFF! Judging by the way the glued bits have separated, the wood used wasn't overly dry, neither.

During my 'professional' time I got to be able to make a Windsor side-chair in a bit under a day apiece, and I think they were a little more finely-finished than that example. It does take a bit of practice to turn fine back spindles, but after a while the calluses on your left hand get big enough to do it all day. I know turning isn't 'genuine' if you are after maximum authenticity, but it's quick, & I reckon if you split the blanks, or at least bandsaw straight-grained pieces along the grain, they should be just as sound. If there was any short grain, I cut it off & used the remainder for shorter applications or consigned it to the kindling pile, and any piece that picked out as badly as one of the bits you show went immediately to the firewood pile. Surely timber isn't THAT rare in Pomgolia yet??!! And to let any piece of wood out of the shop with what looks like 60-grit paper scores along the entire length.............


Oh Dear! And you were so damn excited about it - it's worse than being a kid & unwrapping the Christmas present you thought was going to be a Meccano set to find it's a stinking new school shirt.........

Originally Posted by eddie the eagle

Geez Woodwould.

Looks a trifle on the rough side to be diplomatic.

I'm flat out until February, but could redo some parts if you wanted - the cab legs are the uncommon ones that not many are trained to do now. Let me know if you want me to do half a day no labour cost, elm & postage at cost.

Obviously, pursuing redress with the mfg would be the preferable option.

Should you choose to take up the offer, I wouldn't mind as it's been a while since I've done a cab foot - a chance to keep my eye in.


WHat I originally was going to say was our steam bending timbers - spotted gum was the timber of choice for bending, wasn't aware that blackwood bent well, Ian. Spotted gum may be a bit of a problem as it moves a fair bit with humidity changes (then again, so does elm...)

Cheers,

eddie

Many, many thanks Eddie for the extremely kind offer. I eventually caught up with the bloke on the phone and he was super-evasive and just talked in circles. I'm obviously not going to get any satisfaction from him, so I'm examining my options for a refund right now.

The real draw with having a chair made in the UK is that the correct timbers can be employed to make a Windsor chair. I think the only suitable wood I could find here might be a chunk of elm for the seat. European cherry, European walnut and yew would be the stumbling blocks I'm afraid. If I can bring this unlikely deal to a satisfactory conclusion, I will most likely approach another UK chair maker about having a similar chair made - just to score the correct timbers.

Even though I've made loads of Windsors in the past and I'm tentatively getting back into woodwork in a tiny little shed at home, I wouldn't consider tackling the chair myself because of the timber sourcing issues.

Since unpacking this unholy mess of a chair, I have communicated with a few UK aquaintances who have positively identified a couple of reliable Windsor chairmakers over there, so it looks like I will be going through the whole process again! Wish me luck!

Originally Posted by IanW

I think I detect a LOT of disappointment, & just a HINT of controlled rage there, WW......?

Strewth - I know you have to be a bit less fussy on a commercial job but that is really RUFF! Judging by the way the glued bits have separated, the wood used wasn't overly dry, neither.

During my 'professional' time I got to be able to make a Windsor side-chair in a bit under a day apiece, and I think they were a little more finely-finished than that example. It does take a bit of practice to turn fine back spindles, but after a while the calluses on your left hand get big enough to do it all day. I know turning isn't 'genuine' if you are after maximum authenticity, but it's quick, & I reckon if you split the blanks, or at least bandsaw straight-grained pieces along the grain, they should be just as sound. If there was any short grain, I cut it off & used the remainder for shorter applications or consigned it to the kindling pile, and any piece that picked out as badly as one of the bits you show went immediately to the firewood pile. Surely timber isn't THAT rare in Pomgolia yet??!! And to let any piece of wood out of the shop with what looks like 60-grit paper scores along the entire length.............


Oh Dear! And you were so damn excited about it - it's worse than being a kid & unwrapping the Christmas present you thought was going to be a Meccano set to find it's a stinking new school shirt.........

I haven't been as excited about anything for many a year. How anyone could let that, dare I say, 'quality' of work out the door, I just don't know. I was almost reduced to tears as I unwrapped the chair.

I'm determined to have my chair though and will do what it takes to obtain it.

Originally Posted by IanW

Oh Dear! And you were so damn excited about it - it's worse than being a kid & unwrapping the Christmas present you thought was going to be a Meccano set to find it's a stinking new school shirt.........

I agree totally with the above comment.

How aweful for you, I can feel just how disapointed you must be feeling. I was looking forward to seeing it. And how difficult it would be trying to get this sorted out from so far away from where you ordered it.

Donna

Hi Woodwould,
You have every right to be upset, that kit is utter rubbish, and I can't believe someone had the nerve to send it, let alone accept money for it.
My initial thought is that he didn't actually make the specimen you saw pics of, but used someone else's well-made version and tried ineptly to copy it for you.
I hope you get a full refund, good luck.

Woodwould, I'm sure there will be a positive outcome from all this.

Zelk

The original photo does not match the "product" you were supplied.
Look carefully at the seat, they don't match (as you have the originals you may be able to enlarge and compare).

How did you pay? If you paid by credit card, items are automatically "insured" and you may be able to make a claim that way.

I would not even call this work of an apprentice (unless they were fired after finishing it).

Originally Posted by Sparhawk

The original photo does not match the "product" you were supplied.
Look carefully at the seat, they don't match (as you have the originals you may be able to enlarge and compare).

How did you pay? If you paid by credit card, items are automatically "insured" and you may be able to make a claim that way.

I would not even call this work of an apprentice (unless they were fired after finishing it).

For some reason the photos of the completed chair that were sent to me have been flipped. If you look carefully you can see the exact same markings, but on the opposite side of the seat.

You've made his showcase: http://www.hollandchairs.co.uk/page7.html