Thread: 40% wish they could be a carpenter

Brilliant post Matt!!

Originally Posted by John.G

Lot of people get the carpenter/cabinetmaker/woodworker thing confused for sure but its pretty easy to tell them apart:

A carpenter drives a ute with a trailer behind it full of tools that he can take to the next job whether its the next street over or the other side of the country. A cabinetmaker owns a commercial grade tablesaw thats worth more then all the chippies tools put together and a planer, and a thicknesser, drumsander, edgebander, dust extractor, and then he needs a place to put it.
A woodworker owns all the cabinetmakers tools with none of his income.

I should probably qualify that I want to do an apprenticeship as a carpenter. My shed is that of a cabinetmaker (got everything you list bar the edge bander!), so currently I am a woodworker! I do actually know the difference, have a mate who is (was) a cabinetmaker and have quite a few friends who are carpenters!

My motives for wanting to learn carpentry is purely motivated by my other passion, real estate investing!

Originally Posted by Pearo

Sparky (instrument fitter) by trade here, now software engineer and part time elec engineer. I still do design electronics, but pretty rare these days.

Next year I am hoping to land some sort of job as a carpenter, preferably an adult apprenticeship. Here is the problem though, my company makes me good money and for the best part most of the time all I have to do is go on call,2 weeks on, 4 off. Not willing to give that up, so I am trying to chase up a builder that will put me on part time as an apprentice, and I dont even want to get paid, just want to learn the trade. Just not sure how legal it is to be an apprentice and not get paid. I already have some skills, have all the tools (probably more than most chippies), and have the right attitude. What do you reckon my chances are as a 40 year old? Probably nil.

If I were active in the industry I'd look into it

DaveTTC
The Turning Cowboy
Turning Wood Into Art

I had a son who completed his carpentry apprenticship and a daughter who completed a Uni degree. My son was paid while he learned, and we supported my daughter through her studies. I’ve got a mate who is a sparky and he often gets asked by fathers if they’ll take their son on as an apprentice, even offering to pay their wages. He doesn’t like having apprentices because of the paperwork and other risks. And to top that off, in the past he has trained an apprentice to Y4 only to have the kid leave and complete his final year with another bloke who then reaped the bonus payment.
There’s lots wrong with the apprenticeship system nowadays.

TT

Originally Posted by Twisted Tenon

I had a son who completed his carpentry apprenticship and a daughter who completed a Uni degree. My son was paid while he learned, and we supported my daughter through her studies. I’ve got a mate who is a sparky and he often gets asked by fathers if they’ll take their son on as an apprentice, even offering to pay their wages. He doesn’t like having apprentices because of the paperwork and other risks. And to top that off, in the past he has trained an apprentice to Y4 only to have the kid leave and complete his final year with another bloke who then reaped the bonus payment.
There’s lots wrong with the apprenticeship system nowadays.

TT

I tend to agree. All you read about is there is a shortage of tradies and so many people fighting to get an apprenticeship. Anecdotally, the reason i hear for tradies not wanting to take on apprentices is what you've mentioned above coupled with the unreliability of kids, their lack of work ethic etc. But there's also no real incentive for Mature aged apprentices. Most would have financial commitments (family, mortgage etc) that would mean its not an option financially. I don't know what the solution is there but there needs to be one developed because the current Mature Aged Apprentice wages are pretty dismal.

I know its easy to say upping the wage is the answer, but thats not fair to the employer. Maybe a tax exemption for a Max 4 years till you complete your apprenticeship plus some other form of subsidy... give them access to seniors type discounts for public transport, utilities etc for the 4 years. All i know is, 5 or 6 years ago i was made redundant from an insurance company i worked at for 7 and a half years and even that payout meant i'd not be able to supplement an apprentice wage for the 4 years enough to get to the point where i was able to put food on the table. And that was before i had a child or a mortgage and my now wife working full time.

We were renting at the time and didn't have the option of moving back in with either set of parents as my inlaws house is just too small and my Mum had downsized so didn't have room either.

If i were in a trade and needed an apprentice, if it was the choice between a 16 year old kid or a 30 year old, and there were no differences in cost to hiring one or the other, i know which way i'd be leaning...

Apprenticeships are dead. They are an anti-market distortion akin to medieval serfdom.

Any educational system could teach plumbing or electrical work in 1/10th the time. Just treat it like any other education.

The sooner it's completely dismantled the better.

Originally Posted by woodPixel

Apprenticeships are dead. They are an anti-market distortion akin to medieval serfdom.

Any educational system could teach plumbing or electrical work in 1/10th the time. Just treat it like any other education.

The sooner it's completely dismantled the better.

Traineeships seem to be on the increase. However the TAFE’s or training schools can only teach the head stuff. all the real stuff is learned on the job.

TT

Sure, you could learn the schooling of a trade very quickly (both the theoretical and practical schooling). But the net result of that would be that you started without a clue and it was all downhill from there. Apprenticeships are structured over time so that you are not learning the advanced techniques until well into the apprenticeship. You get to apply the trained and practised easy skills to complete the advanced skills. A simple example would be the four sided moulder module in the wood machining apprenticeship. You first learn buzzers (the bottom heads on a 4 sider), thicknessers (top heads), and spindle moulders (side heads). So instead of the four sider being an overwhelming WHAT THE! scenario which you would need to be a genius to remember it all, it ends up just being more "work".

It has always been my thought that 'generally' you learn what you need to know in the first year of your apprenticeship. The rest of the time is spent learning how to apply those same skills in all manner of ways to achieve the specific task at hand. Sure there are always exceptions and times when you have to come up wierd and wonderful solutions to problems you couldn't dream about.... But heck - it keeps life interesting

In an automotive mechanical apprenticeship, the course is divided into fundamentals, servicing then repair.
There are 20 core competencies and 16 electives chosen by the employer. Content and competencies are decided by Auto Skills Australia in consultation with industry.
As its competency based, the training provider must assess each competency on at least two different practical examples then assess theoretically (oral or written). The employer then signs off on the final element which is Work Evidence ie. competency in the workplace.
The apprentice can get signed off as soon as they meet all competencies and the employer is happy to have them completed. This can be as short as 18 months or as long as 4 years.

Originally Posted by Twisted Tenon

I had a son who completed his carpentry apprenticship and a daughter who completed a Uni degree. My son was paid while he learned, and we supported my daughter through her studies. I’ve got a mate who is a sparky and he often gets asked by fathers if they’ll take their son on as an apprentice, even offering to pay their wages. He doesn’t like having apprentices because of the paperwork and other risks. And to top that off, in the past he has trained an apprentice to Y4 only to have the kid leave and complete his final year with another bloke who then reaped the bonus payment.
There’s lots wrong with the apprenticeship system nowadays.

TT

I'm doing all my training through a non-apprenticeship pathway.

http://www.tiv.vic.edu.au/2017/07/13/a-practical-path-for-a-career-in-construction/

Better real world training than tafe, no need to beg for an apprenticeship.

Originally Posted by 44Ronin

I'm doing all my training through a non-apprenticeship pathway.

http://www.tiv.vic.edu.au/2017/07/13/a-practical-path-for-a-career-in-construction/

Better real world training than tafe, no need to beg for an apprenticeship.

Shame the dont have something like that in Brisbane.

$10k investment for a 96% placement in industry.... An absolute bargain! Trade Institute of Victoria – Fee Advice Statement

Again, apprenticeship is utterly dead. Why would you bother?

You could start this course, get Fee Help plus a study allowance all while making money In your spare time from day 1.

As stated in my earlier post, my son is an electrical engineer. Well respected and highly sought after.
Reason: He did an apprenticeship first. He can hold his own anywhere. Has the trade experience and the scientific knowledge. Speaks both "languages."
I have heard it said many times that apprenticeships are a thing of the past. I disagree. Most people I know who have completed a trade are damn glad they did so. We may not continue down that path for the rest of our lives, but it was good training to start out on. The idea of "get ticket quick" scenarios doesn't impress me one bit. Nor do the "tradesmen" they create.