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24th November 2019, 11:23 PM #1Intermediate Member
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Is this acceptable quality? Cupping & cracks in timber table top
Hi,
My friend is seeking general advice as he purchased a solid timber American Oak custom table top with an oil/wax finish and after only a few months he sees some problems developing.
1) cupping / bowing of the top as a whole - in the below photo where a straight/level board has been put on top you can see a gap where the table seems to have bowed/cupped quite a bit
Cupped Top.jpg
2) Crack in a single board - the photo above shows a crack which has developed in the grain, and below is a close up.
Cracked Grain.jpg
3) Crack along join line - a crack in the join line between boards to make the panel has developed
Cracked Join.jpg
The manufactuerer's response was to quote from their maintenance page:
"All the timber we use in our furniture is pre seasoned and ready for a long hard life. Splits andcracks may develop as it responds to the environment and these are not to be considered afault or flaw and will not compromise the construction of any furniture we make."
I am not an experienced woodworker but thought that issues 1 & 2 might be symptomatic of not letting the wood stabilise or dry out prior to creating the tabletop panel, and that issue 3 should not really happen if glued well in the first place.
I was hoping for some of your experience whether these types of problems would be typically expected and/or acceptable in a commercial product made from this material? For me it seems strange that tables that are decades (or even centuries) old can remain straight and crack free, whereas this is only months old.
Thanks in advance for your help.
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25th November 2019, 12:43 AM #2
The failed glue line is sufficient to return it. That is not acceptable.
I just would just take my money back and leave the other faults as further ammunition if there is any pushback. Not that there should be any pushback. That glue line fault is a definite manufacturing defect.
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25th November 2019, 08:52 AM #3Taking a break
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Cupping is a fact of life with solid timber, but the failed glue line is definitely not an acceptable defect
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25th November 2019, 10:20 AM #4Intermediate Member
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Thanks for that advice.
I couldn't see a sure-fire way around cupping, and would think that this can be relatively easily fixed with some planing.
Any thoughts on the crack mid-board? Is this just not seasoning the wood long enough? Otherwise is the fix to just fill, sand, and refinish?
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25th November 2019, 10:41 AM #5GOLD MEMBER
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Moisture content may not be suitable to the location. Check with a non invasive moisture meter.
Unequal surface finishing between top and bottom face may cause cupping. Particularly with backsawn oak.
A failed glue joint is not a natural fault and cannot be viewed as a natural timber split.
If the table is located in an artificial climatic environment ie air conditioning, fire heater, the above faults will be more likely to occur and more obvious requiring a more careful selection of material and design to overcome the adversity.
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25th November 2019, 10:57 AM #6Taking a break
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Timber moves with the seasons and it will probably cup the other way in a few months. Do not try to fix cupping by planing it out, it's not a battle you can win
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25th November 2019, 12:04 PM #7GOLD MEMBER
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Definitely not merchantable quality. The timber is not seasoned enough to use and then it is not sufficiently sealed to protect it from rapid moisture loss. Not professional at all. Money back please or its down to the chamber magistrate at the court of petty sessions.
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25th November 2019, 01:12 PM #8
Is it possible to get a picture of the underside of the table top. I would like to see how the top is attached to the base frame. My guess is nothing is done to allow for wood movement.
Visit my website at www.myFineWoodWork.com
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25th November 2019, 02:17 PM #9Jimcracks for the rich and/or wealthy. (aka GKB '88)
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25th November 2019, 03:08 PM #10
With the board joint going, It can be the builder not doing his very best with the jointing of the boards. That table has had some rough treatment from heating Id bet . Its got three different faults that all relate to large temp swings .
It could partly be blamed on the maker and it can just as easy be the home owner either letting direct sun light heat up the top or the heating of the house can do it too . We just came out of a cold winter . Some people are silly the way they heat a house. Full on heat for weeks .
The owner got a good table and now its like that . Now if the guy building has made a bit of stuff from the same timber and that's the only one that's done that he's going to know its not him . If He hasn't built much and this starts happening hes going to be adjusting his quality pretty quickly . This can be the outcome of going with a cheap buy off a new builder who may have just started out and the house heating ?
If I get a call about something like that and its close to when I delivered , Id pick it up and fix it then take it back free.
If its been a while since the piece was delivered and it could have been the treatment of the table I try and share the cost of fixing . Like You pay the carrier to pick up and deliver and Ill re do the woodwork .
The owner should first try and solve the problem with some calm discussion and not go for the builder with threats . Try and work out a deal that works out for both . Then if that doesn't work do what ever.
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25th November 2019, 04:21 PM #11
Yup. I 'restored' a relatively new spinning wheel a while back and later heard "on the grapevine" that the customer was complaining about my work to other spinners as the wheel had fallen apart again. Considering that the main reason it needed repairs in the first place was she kept it stored over a ducted heating vent... well... my bet is she kept on doing that even though I cautioned her not to.
That table could be a poor quality build. It could as easily be failing from mistreatment.
- Andy Mc
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25th November 2019, 05:07 PM #12GOLD MEMBER
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Did your friend purchase the completed dining table, top and base? or just the top?
In the first photo at the bottom joint, there appears to be visible glue squeeze out in a finished piece!!!!!
And in the last photo, it appears that the "U" base only extends to the upright legs and no further. Which means the outer board is completely unsupported or tamed and free to cup, twist and break off if a fatty sits on it. And that could also explain the 'natural' crack, given that would be a bit of a flex point as the outer edge is pressed down, the area at the crack is lifted up. The weak spot breaks first.
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25th November 2019, 11:24 PM #13
You are not going to win the cupping war with planing. You will just end up with a thinner table top, and it will still be cupped.
There are ways to minimise cupping from boards but they are mechanical in nature. For instance, breadboard ends. Though I cannot see the understructure of the table, there doesn't appear to be much holding the top off of the floor let alone any account made for the natural movement of timber. This is one of those cases where a manufactured veneered board would have been a superior solution.
For the crack, filling and sanding will be a short term repair until the board cracks further. If I had made that table and was going to repair it, I would actually expand the crack and inject glue into it under pressure and pull it through with vacuum; then clamp it. If I was still uncertain, I would drill a hole at the end of the crack and plug the drilled hole in addition to the previous treatment.
But, all of that is the builder's problem.
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27th November 2019, 11:43 AM #14
Interesting; possibly a series of issues.
From endgrain photo, table top seems to be made from planks approximately 150 x 35 mm - nice and chunky which should be stable. But the tight radii of those growth rings suggest that the timber was cut near the centre of the log and possibly from small logs. This may increase internal tensions, especially when compared to the gentle curves from larger logs and with quarter sawn timber.
In photo 1, the light showing between the table top and the straight edge is a nice smooth crescent indicating even movement across all planks. ie one plank is not bowed and the next is cupped:
- This suggests that the bottom of the table has expanded more than the top of the table,
- Wood expands with moisture and contracts with drying.
Question 1: Has the bottom of the table been sealed the same as the top? If not, moisture may enter the unsealed timber, cause that surface to expand and the table top to cup.
Question 2: Has the top of the table been subject to some sort of "drying agent", such as direct sunlight, wall mounted heater, ceiling aircon vent, etc? That may cause that surface to dry and shrink and the table top to cup.
Question 3: As Wongo has already asked, does the method of attachment of the table top to the base adequately allow for expansion and contraction of the timber?
Cheers
Graeme
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27th November 2019, 12:46 PM #15Intermediate Member
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Thanks all again for the further replies.
I will answer with what I know, and the owner of the table is also watching this thread so hopefully they can take it into account.
Thanks for the advice around not planing flat.
The legs are very basic - a rectangle frame and the tabletop sits on top.
Table Base.jpg
It is fixed with bolts but I cannot tell if the holes are oversized / elongated to allow for movement - just that the owner was told not to tighten too much (which doesn't say much).
Base to Top.jpg
I don't think there are sources of excessive heat / sunlight.
As far as I know, the owner is a very peaceable person in dealing with these things.
Since it has been purchased from a very large national retailer (who tried to put the owner in touch with the maker) I have advised that the owner makes it the retailer's issue to deal with. I can't imagine the retailer would risk the reputational damage, and the maker will also not be willing to fob off a larger retailer as their customer at risk of losing the contract. Who knows, this might be accepted as a return and end up on the clearance pile.Last edited by eddomak; 27th November 2019 at 01:02 PM. Reason: More detail / photos added
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