Thread: Beginner trying to build a basic laundry cupboard - looking for guidance

A few quickies.

1: Bunnings cannot cut sheet goods (MDF, ply etc) to width the long way, only crosscut to about 600mm. And then only if they have someone on duty authorised to use the saw. You really need an old time timber yard that has a panel saw - they can cut to width and length, and can probably read a clearly labelled drawing. Some (most) specialist ply retailers will also have a panel saw - you don't have Mr Ply in Victoria, but there is probably someone similar.

2: You should use 'A' bond ply or HMR (High Moisture Resistant) particleboard or HMR MDF - regular particleboard or MDF will just turn to mush in a few months at most, and cheap ply may de-laminate also. Then give the whole thing a few coats of gloss paint - oil based/turps cleanup if you can stand the smell as it dries. You may be able to get HMR boards with white melamine coating, which just need self adhesive melamine edging ironed on, saving painting altogether.

3: making it as 2 complete modules with the height based on the height of the doors you bought would make it MUCH easier to move through doors & install - if the ceiling is low you might not even be able to tilt up a tall cupboard. A separate base made from some cheap pine studding will keep the base out of any water or rising damp, just cut it as wide as the cupboard and 50mm or so shorter front to back, glue & screw it with butt joints, then screw thru the bottom of the cupboard into the pine frame.

4: If you are using MDR or particle board you will need to pre-drill any screw holes as regular screws can split MDF or particle board if you just jam them in. You can buy a gadget that drills the hole and makes the countersink for the screw head to go in - Makita make one that incorporates a screwdriver on a flip round with the drill bit, or you can get ones that are just the drill.

5: If you are going to be making several projects from sheet goods over time you could invest in another gadget - and my preferred method of joining - a pocket hole jig - Carbatec stock a couple of models of 'Kreg' pocket hole jigs, just get the 'Rocket' kit, which is the most basic kit ($89) and has a few screws, add an extra small box of screws ($6.50 for 50) & you won't get much change from $100. For a beginner I think it is easier to get good results the pocket hole screws than with dowels.

6. 'Euro-hinges' - the type that go in a 35mm hole - need a special drill bit and possibly some sort of jig to keep the holes straight- After buying the bit, you could make a guide from some 2x4 pine - drill a 4" deep hole hole a fraction bigger than the drill shank through the pine, then cut a chunk out of the corner to clear the bigger business end of the bit before it enters the timber. Thread the drill bit thru the hole & tighten in the drill chuck & start drilling holes.

Or just use standard 'butt' hinges - if the sides are not thick enough for the screws, you could always use short bolts - I have.

7: Buy some clamps. You will need one for the pocket hole jig if you buy a Kreg 'Rocket' jig, and a few more to hold the sides in place. About 4 more clamps, a bit longer than you intend the sides to be wide - many clamps actually can't clamp something as long as their 'nominal' size. Bessey clamps are the Rolls Royce of clamps available in Australia - 4 x Duo-clamp60's will set you back about $150+ from Carbatec.

8: After you add up the cost of all the extra tools you need to buy, see why IKEA stay in business.

Hi bsrlee,

All I can say is thank you for taking the time to respond to my questions with such detail - I am very grateful. You are so right about the cost - I had a feeling that this project would end up being more expensive than just buying a cupboard from Ikea/Bunnings, but had no clue about how much more expensive! I have never been good at doing anything handy, but I would like to learn, and at the moment I have a little spare time and a little money to spend on tools so I'm hoping that if I can get through a few basic projects, maybe the money spent on decent tools will pay off in the long run. And if not, maybe the satisfaction of making something myself will help to lessen the pain from my depleted bank account

I've got a few more questions - I've added them inline.

1: Bunnings cannot cut sheet goods (MDF, ply etc) to width the long way, only crosscut to about 600mm. And then only if they have someone on duty authorised to use the saw. You really need an old time timber yard that has a panel saw - they can cut to width and length, and can probably read a clearly labelled drawing. Some (most) specialist ply retailers will also have a panel saw - you don't have Mr Ply in Victoria, but there is probably someone similar.
Good advice. People on the forum have recommended Plyboard Distributors, and I've found a few other places that stock HMR MDF and/or HMR particleboard.

2: You should use 'A' bond ply or HMR (High Moisture Resistant) particleboard or HMR MDF - regular particleboard or MDF will just turn to mush in a few months at most, and cheap ply may de-laminate also. Then give the whole thing a few coats of gloss paint - oil based/turps cleanup if you can stand the smell as it dries. You may be able to get HMR boards with white melamine coating, which just need self adhesive melamine edging ironed on, saving painting altogether.
If you had to choose between HMR particleboard or HMR MDF, which would you prefer? I only ask because the places closest to me that sell and cut it only sell the HMR particleboard. I don't mind driving further if the MDF is a better material to work with. Also, what thickness should I use? Some places only stock 16mm thick boards - is that enough, or should I be aiming for 18mm or even thicker? I want to be able to paint the cupboards to match the others in the laundry so having to paint the boards is not an issue.

3: making it as 2 complete modules with the height based on the height of the doors you bought would make it MUCH easier to move through doors & install - if the ceiling is low you might not even be able to tilt up a tall cupboard. A separate base made from some cheap pine studding will keep the base out of any water or rising damp, just cut it as wide as the cupboard and 50mm or so shorter front to back, glue & screw it with butt joints, then screw thru the bottom of the cupboard into the pine frame.
Great advice - now that you've raised it, I have no idea how this didn't occur to me already, as my laundry space is very cramped. With the pocket hole joint method you've told me about, I think I could just make the cupboard in two sections with the holes to join the top half to the bottom half already pre-drilled, then just assemble and screw it together once it's in the laundry room. I'm a little unclear on the part about the pine studding being 50mm shorter front to back. If the cupboard was 60cm deep, the pine studs would be 55cm deep, but where would the 5cm gap be? At the front or the rear of the cupboard's base? And how tall should it be - just a few cms?

4: If you are using MDR or particle board you will need to pre-drill any screw holes as regular screws can split MDF or particle board if you just jam them in. You can buy a gadget that drills the hole and makes the countersink for the screw head to go in - Makita make one that incorporates a screwdriver on a flip round with the drill bit, or you can get ones that are just the drill.
Is this the one you mean: Makita 27pce 4 Way Driver & Bit Set # P-64783
If so, the sets come for either #6 or #8 screws - I know the difference is quite small, but which one would be the most useful?

5: If you are going to be making several projects from sheet goods over time you could invest in another gadget - and my preferred method of joining - a pocket hole jig - Carbatec stock a couple of models of 'Kreg' pocket hole jigs, just get the 'Rocket' kit, which is the most basic kit ($89) and has a few screws, add an extra small box of screws ($6.50 for 50) & you won't get much change from $100. For a beginner I think it is easier to get good results the pocket hole screws than with dowels.
It is pretty rare to see a product on amazon.com get such a consistent amount of exceptional reviews. Not cheap, but now that I've read about the numerous applications for pocket hole joints, I can see it being a worthwhile investment.

6. 'Euro-hinges' - the type that go in a 35mm hole - need a special drill bit and possibly some sort of jig to keep the holes straight- After buying the bit, you could make a guide from some 2x4 pine - drill a 4" deep hole hole a fraction bigger than the drill shank through the pine, then cut a chunk out of the corner to clear the bigger business end of the bit before it enters the timber. Thread the drill bit thru the hole & tighten in the drill chuck & start drilling holes.
I've got a jig for drilling the 35mm holes so hopefully I can do a decent job on the hinge holes.

Or just use standard 'butt' hinges - if the sides are not thick enough for the screws, you could always use short bolts - I have.

7: Buy some clamps. You will need one for the pocket hole jig if you buy a Kreg 'Rocket' jig, and a few more to hold the sides in place. About 4 more clamps, a bit longer than you intend the sides to be wide - many clamps actually can't clamp something as long as their 'nominal' size. Bessey clamps are the Rolls Royce of clamps available in Australia - 4 x Duo-clamp60's will set you back about $150+ from Carbatec.
Ouch again! Are these the Carbatec clamps? Double Panel Clamp Set : CARBA-TEC
At $55 each, that's a lot of money on clamps!

Thanks again,
Sean.

Just getting back to this project after making a workbench for myself which taught me a lot. My main question now is regarding the type of hinge to use to attach the door to the cupboard. The louvred door is 460mm wide, and has an area of 30mm on each side of the louvred section where I could attach a hinge.

The other cupboards in the laundry use hinges that are recessed (rebated?) into the side of the cupboard and screwed into the door. However, I plan to use melamine MDF/chipboard for the cupboard sides so I'm not sure if it would be easy to chisel out a rebate in the melamine MDF/chipboard for that kind of hinge. So can someone please help me to work out the best (most simple) kind of hinge to use?

1. The door will need to open from left to right. It would also be great if the hinge would allow the door to open more than 90 degrees (maybe 110-120) to make access easier, but not absolutely essential.

2. Based on your recommended hinge, does the width of the cupboard need to be greater than the width of the door? My door is 460mm wide, so should the sides of the cupboard be 460mm apart? Looking at my sketchup model, I'm thinking that the width of the cupboard might need to be greater than the width of the door, otherwise there will only be around 10-12mm of door to attach a hinge to (instead of the full 30mm of space on each side of the louvred section, since the width of the cupboard side is 18mm).

Thanks again for the help!

Hi,

You'll want a Blum European style hinge. They should be readily available from Bunnings. There should be 120 degree blum hinges available. You'll need a 35 mm Forstner bit. I got mine from Carba-tec for around $12.

The Blum hinges use screws on the cabinet carcasses and 35 mm recessed in the doors. Check your kitchen doors. That's what you'll want it to look like.

In standard kitchen construction, the width of the doors is usually the width of the carcass minus 3mm (1.5 either side). I think you might have to come up with a solution for that problem. I'd consider laminating a thin strip either side of your door to increase the size. That will require some clamps, but if you want to continue with woodwork, clamps are something you'll certainly get use out of. Alternatively, you could get the doors cut from laminate also. They won't match the other louvre doors though. Or... sell them and get new ones.

I personally use 16mm white HMR cut by plyboard distriubutors on a CNC machine. In my opinion, it's worth it. Custom cut laminate, and as long as you know what you want, they'll edge it in the right places as well.

I just had a thought; just take 32 mm off the overall size of the cabinet. If this would still fit your stuff, probably easier than laminating onto the doors if you don't have the equipment.

Anyway, hope this didn't confuse you.

Tom.

Thanks Tom!

You're right - those are the same hinges on all of my kitchen cupboard doors so finding them at Bunnings shouldn't be hard. I re-measured the non-louvred area and it is a little wider than I first thought - 45mm in fact. So I think that gives me just enough room to fit the 35mm hole for the blum hinge, assuming that the hole is around 5mm from the very edge of the door. So all good there I think.

But I am a little confused about the door width issue. I was planning to get the melamine cut to size by someone like Gunnerson's/Allboards etc, so I am flexible with the width. Given that my doors appear wide enough to not require the laminate for extra width for the blum hinges, should I just go with your original option of making the carcass 3mm (1.5 each side) wider than the door (my door is 460mm, so carcass width would be 463mm)? And last dumb question - is the 463mm the distance between the inside edges of the carcass sides (i.e. total width = 463 + 16mm one side + 16mm other side), or the distance between the outer edges of the sides (i.e. real total width of carcass is 463mm?

Hope I didn't confuse you

Hi smcg,

I've built a few carcasses, and just finished a kitchen for my (likely) Father in law.

You want your total carcass width to be 463mm. Cabinetmakers usually take 3mm off the total width of the door for movement to allow the doors to open without rubbing on the door next to it etc. Since you have the doors, you want to reverse engineer the carcass to fit and hence, 463 total width. If your laundry cabinet does not have any cabinets next to it, you can just make them 460 if you feel like. I'd consider the likely-hood of them being next to another cabinet in the future though.

The most common carcass construction involves this formula:
Side: Total height * Depth * 16mm (Thickness). Qty = 2
Bottom/ Total width - 32mm * Depth * 16mm. Qty = 2
Back: Total height - 32mm (Bottom/Top) - 150 (Kicker) * Total width - 32mm * 16mm. Edge None, Qty = 1
Kickers: Total Width - 32mm * 150mm * 16mm. Edge None, Qty = 2

Edge 1 long is the cabinetmaker jargon way of saying "I want a piece of white edging glued on one of the long edges." Edge None just says, "Cut it and give it to me, no-one will ever see the undressed edges." There are many variations on this. Edge, 2 long, one short etc etc. If you do another cabinet, you'll probably pick up on the slang pretty quick.

Having a read of your first post, the Louvre doors are 1050mm high, which gives a total cabinet height of:
150(Kick board height) + 1050(Door 1 Height) + 3(Gap between doors to allow for movement) + 1050(Door 2) = 2253mm.
You said you wanted a cabinet depth of 700 and doors are 460; chuck this in the formula above and it should spit out your new cabinet dimensions.

So, assuming approx dims of 2253,700,460 you'd want something like:
Side: 2253*700*16 - Edge 1 Long, Qty = 2
Bottom/ 428*700*16 - Edge 1 Short, Qty = 2
Back: 2068*150*16, Edge None, Qty = 2
Kickers: 428*150*16 - Edge None, Qty = 2

Shelves are another consideration. I prefer to have fixed location shelves so I use:
Total width - 32mm * Total Depth - 20mm (give yourself a couple mm reveal to look professional) * 16mm. Edge 1 Short. I know I will only want the shelves at fixed locations, so I screw them and they will stay there for the unit's life span.

Others prefer the option of adjustable shelves. Total width - 35mm * Total depth - 20mm * 16mm. Edge 1 short. Get the specific number of shelves as required for your job, remembering the bottom functions as a storage surface. In this option, you can pick up some metal shelf "thingy's". They require 3mm less shelf width. If you get your laminate cut by a laminate dealer, they'll probably throw them in for free. Another note, if you want adjustable, standard dictates 5 holes drilled vertically at (I think) 35mm spacings. You'll need to tell them where you want the shelf holes drilled, so I'd sketch it out on some paper and have a calculator handy.

Hope this helped,

Tom

P.S. When you've had some time to digest this, If you want some advise on tools (screws/drill-bits etc.), I can recommend what I use. Let me know.

Hi SMCG. There are some useful trade guides on hmr pineboard and mdf on the maker's site -
http://www.thelaminexgroup.com.au/do...e_WhiteMDF.pdf
and http://www.thelaminexgroup.com.au/do...Whiteboard.pdf

There is some good information in here. You'll see that waterproofing and screw holding capacity is about the same for both. The modulus of elasticity and the modulus of rupture are both significantly better for whiteboard (the chipboard, not the mdf). Clearly whiteboard is the better option for the carcase, though the mdf is a requisite for doors or panels that will need to be edge shaped and later painted or whatever.

You will also see that there are two recommended methods of jointing are - dowels and screws. It doesnt say so, but I think its screws by preferance and dowels for where the screw heads would be unsightly. My issue with the dowels, and also with pocket hole screws, is that the standard board thickness for this type of construction is 16mm, so with the published requirement of not letting any fitting penetrate more then 2/3 of the way through then you can only seat the fitting 10mm into the face surface. Seems a bit lame to me.

Its probably best to build as modular units and hold together with fittings like this one Cabinet Connectors - look closely at the packet in the middle.

I think the knowledge to build whiteboard cabinets properly is one of the most useful things a homeowner can have. I was shown about 15 years ago and have used it since through numerous bathroom, laundry and kitchen rennos. Its saved thousands, not just money but hours because its such simple cabinetry - but clean and practical and nice looking in a utilitarian sort of way.

By the way (apologies to anyone else who has already mentioned this, dont have time to reread) you dont want those Carbatec panel clamps - they are for gluing up strips of real timber into flat panels while preventing bowing and cupping.

cheers
Arron

Hi Tom and Arron - I can't thank you both enough for the detailed replies. I recently turned 30 and I am sure that even basic skills like melamine cabinet construction will come in handy over the next few decades! And the more you make the more you recover the cost of the tools eh?

Tom - thanks again for the detailed explanation and example - I think I get it now. I'm not 10% sure where the kick boards fit in, but I don't think I'll be using them anyway. My understanding is that they go vertically (i.e. the 150mm edge upright) up from the floor, and then you add a shelf (or actually the base) on top of them to make a kind of false base? If they are purely for cosmetics, I think I'll just leave them out. I was planning to just use 4 plastic legs under the bottom of the cabinet to keep it from getting wet from water sitting on the floor. All of our kitchen cabinets have kickboards and they do look better I think,but this is really just a functional laundry cupboard that is out of the way.

I have invested in a pocket hole jig so was planning on using that for the jointing. I have seen a few plans for similar cabinets using 3/4" thick MDF, so was thinking that if I get 18mm melamine that should be close enough to use those other plans as guides of where to place the pocket holes. Looking at those documents from the Laminex Group, it looks like whiteboard is the way to go if the prices are in the same ball park so that's what I'll be aiming for.

The last thing I forsee causing me a problem is the 35mm Blum hinge hole. I don't have a pedastal drill, so wasn't sure if a Forstner bit would be the way to go in my battery-operated drill (i.e. how to get it at an even depth). Also, my drill only takes hex shank bits, and finding a Forstner bit for it might not be so straightforward. I do however have a router and a template/bushing specifically for taking out 35mm holes for these kinds of hinges. So I plan to get the deplth sorted on a few scraps of timber, then use it to carve out the hole for the blum hinge on the good melamine. Sounds like the hard way to go about it, but without a pedastal drill to drill out a level hole, I'm hoping it's the next best thing

Cheers again lads - I can't wait to get this saga over with so that I can move onto my next project (building a blackboard easel for my goddaughter) which should be a bit more fun and less utilitarian

Have you checked out the clipon style kickboards - the sort that clip onto the plastic cabinet feet.

check here, go down to page 8
http://www.cabinets-online.com.au/Ki...stallation.pdf

Dead simple.

cheers
Arron