Thread: What is a cabinetmaker?

Originally Posted by Wolffie

....This customer wanted either arched or cathedral doors but was told it was either straight rails or nothing, it was not worth it to bother with making or buying templates just for one customer.
Wolffie

Hmm, Wolffie - I've done about 4 or 5 custom kitchens & wouldn't have thought doing arched top rails would add more than a few minutes to each door. Wouldn't need a template - cut to a line, smooth, by whichever method you prefer (a compass plane or spokesave for me) & the bearing-guided router you are doing the sticking with should do the rest.

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

Hmm, Wolffie - I've done about 4 or 5 custom kitchens & wouldn't have thought doing arched top rails would add more than a few minutes to each door. Wouldn't need a template - cut to a line, smooth, by whichever method you prefer (a compass plane or spokesave for me) & the bearing-guided router you are doing the sticking with should do the rest.

Cheers,

Have to admit I thought it strange too but that was what he said.
He is a "straight lines" person so that could explain it.
This is why I am making my own doors, I am not a run-of-the-mill sort of person
Do you agree with the other definitiion? I found it kind of sad that this is what people think of the trade.

I thought being a cabinetmaker he would already have these templates, must just be the fantasy world i live in

What a boring life to lead -no challenges just follow the straight line. He certainly wouldn't fancy fitting out boats then.
Jim

Originally Posted by Wolffie

[COLOR=Blue]A person who charges a lot of money to make the same kind of cabinets you can buy cheaper at Ikea, Bunnings and Mitre10

That person is an idiot.

Originally Posted by Wolffie

Do you agree with the other definitiion? I found it kind of sad that this is what people think of the trade.

Well, Wolffie, we should always try to walk a mile in the other's shoes.....

Unfortunately, supply follows demand, and too few people are prepared to pay for work which they can't distinguish as better than the shelf product - I struck so much of that during my brief foray into custom cabinetmaking. So cabinetmakers, like every other trade, are only responding to demand, and to make a decent living, you do what you have to as quickly & efficiently as possible. You would hope, at least, that someone well-versed in cabinet installation can do a much better job, much more quickly, than your average Joe buying the Ikea version, but there are always those who prefer to feel the width, & not the quality. Most of the people who respond here are NOT going to be your average Joe - there are plenty of competent pros in this forum (who are demonstrating extra interest by the simple fact they are coming here), plus the non-pros who are passionately interested in things wooden. So the views on custom woodworking expressed here are likely to be strongly positive!

Having said that, I'm as surpised as a few other respondents that he has no desire to rise to at least an occasional challenge. If you have enough work of the straightforward, boring variety to keep you comfortable, taking on the odd 'decent' job helps keep you sane, even though the profit margin may not be as high. At least two pros I know work on that principle. P'raps he's a devotee of Yossarian ("Catch 22") who figured that time passes slowly when you're bored, so if you stay bored, you'll live forever....

Avagoodone,

Originally Posted by Wolffie

The other day someone defined a cabinetmaker to me as:

A person who charges a lot of money to make the same kind of cabinets you can buy cheaper at Ikea, Bunnings and Mitre10

A cabinetmaker, whom I asked the question, told me that for the first time in 20 years, a customer asked him to make proper timber AKA rail and stile doors and benchtops, usually they just want routered "pretend" rail and stile or laminated doors and tops
This customer wanted either arched or cathedral doors but was told it was either straight rails or nothing, it was not worth it to bother with making or buying templates just for one customer.

What is your definition?

Cheers
Wolffie

Well it depends where you are in the world as many countries have very strict and exhaustive training and testing before one is called a cabinetmaker but I will confine my answer to the Australian situation.

In almost all cases a "Cabinetmaker" in Aust is a guy with a panel saw and edgebander who makes kitchens and WIR's.
By my definition he is not a cabinetmaker or a craftsman but might be worthy of the title Tradesman (Might be!)

I think most of us here who use the term Cabinetmaker are better served by the term Designer Maker and only fall back on Cabinetmaker when talking about Cabinets Built in bookcases and internal fittings and other Box like structures. IE a chair is not Cabinetmaking!

A simple rule of thumb might be if you ask for something and the Cabinetmaker says he only does straight lines then he is not a cabinetmaker at all.
If he replies that it will cost you a bomb and you decide to go with the straight line version then he may be a cabinetmaker who by demand owns a panel saw and edgebander and makes melamine boxes for a living.
If he says he doesnt do kitchens and wont work with melamine that the job will take forever and has holes in his pants and his car blows smoke then he is probably a designer maker!



Ross

We recently had a kitchen installed, and it can't compare to the IKEA/Bunnings kitchens. Yes it is Melamine with laminated doors and benches. That is about where the similarity ends though. The ability to custom design the kitchen to suit us and our space, and then accurately make the design are what is important. You just couldn't get what we needed from the kit manufacturers. In addition, the designer we used still designs with paper and cuts with a panel saw. Most seemed to use CAD software and CNC manufacturing. Guess what - the software was restricted to 90 and 45 degree angles, and we have some places where benches and cabinets work best with different, wierd angles. There's still a place for quality design and manufacture for sure.

Peter

I have taken on the task of making my kitchen as i have this pre-conceived idea that to get what i wanted would cost me and arm and a leg.

Cabinetmakers are in business, to make money. The way things work now is to turn over as much as possible, in the smallest time possible and maximise the profit. To maximise profit, you must work smart and this would be to turn over as much of the same product as possible. My assumption is less setup of machines, you know the dimensions as you always use standard cabinet sizes, etc.

I have a thread running in the Kitchen section and someone posted why would you use anything other than melamine for the carcases. Sure i have to coat my veneered American maple, but at east when I open my drawers I see wood, not Melamine. Plus as Ian indicated, why not rise to the challenge.

I'm not a pro, but unlike others i suppose, i believe that once i give it a go I can work through the issues and resolve them into "hopefully" a nice end product, which meets my demands.

It is such a shame to see trades just supplying the common lines. I just read about a guy who has purchased 90 near identical imitation antiques to fill his house. (The american woodworking magazine) It was great to see that people have this passion to deliver quality items and even if it takes 9 years to make them all.

/M

Unfortunately many of the people today who are ignorant are in powerful positions. They consider that because they play with big money (mainly debt) that they are clever. I hold the opposite view however like many here on the forum we are in the minority.

I always offer to help the ignorant but on my terms. The object of such an exercise is not to dull my ablilities, standards and skills to their low level but to raise their ability and knowledge for their benefit. If they insist that I become ignorant like them then I let them go on their own.

If they can't afford something well made, send them to the chipboard supermarkets.

If they think a cabinet maker is someone who assembles flat sheets of formaldehyde with a few specks of second rate chips then let them believe that - nature will take it's course and snuff them earlier, we will be better off without them.

An Australian cabinet maker is a tradesman qualified through an apprenticeship.

The wages are low,
the profit margins are low,
you can't mess around making things you are not equppied to make.

So that particular tradesman's equipment obviously only suited sheet material doors,
He just wasn't equipped to manufacture joinery doors.

Joinery timber doors are usually made by speciality joinery door manufacturers who make only doors

Originally Posted by echnidna

Joinery timber doors are usually made by speciality joinery door manufacturers who make only doors

Most kitchen manufacturers will buy in their timber doors from a joinery manufacturer. I'm surprised the OP person didn't offer to do that.

Peter

As someone who makes kitchens for a living I thought I'd respond, though two people have said most of what I was going to say:

Originally Posted by seafurymike

............Cabinetmakers are in business, to make money. The way things work now is to turn over as much as possible, in the smallest time possible and maximise the profit. To maximise profit, you must work smart and this would be to turn over as much of the same product as possible. My assumption is less setup of machines, you know the dimensions as you always use standard cabinet sizes, etc.............

Originally Posted by echnidna

An Australian cabinet maker is a tradesman qualified through an apprenticeship.

The wages are low,
the profit margins are low,
you can't mess around making things you are not equppied to make.

So that particular tradesman's equipment obviously only suited sheet material doors,
He just wasn't equipped to manufacture joinery doors.

Joinery timber doors are usually made by speciality joinery door manufacturers who make only doors

I spent years fitting out boats, lots of interesting work and challenges there. I've got to say though, that since I started knocking up kitchens instead I make much better money, even though my clients think my prices are highly competitive. The work isn't nearly as interesting, but I have more free time and I'm finally getting around to doing some stuff for myself. If Wolffie had come to me for those doors, then I'd probably have refused the job also. I still take on the occasional challenging job, and even though it costs the client way more than a run of the mill one I end up making little money on it. I can only afford to do the occasional interesting and satisfying job. When I extend my shed and set up the rest of my machines I will chase custom timber work and give it a try for a year or so to see if I can make some money at it once I have the room and the equipment. If not, the machines will possibly be sold once I've finished doing all my own stuff. (Or possibly I'll keep them to play with when i retire.)

Summary: In most cases it's not a matter of "can't do it" but a matter of "can't do it and make a profit" or "can't do it and charge what it's really worth".

BTW, I don't use standard cabinet sizes, but I do try to keep them the same height and depth as it's most economical for material use and machine set up.

Mick

Originally Posted by petersemple

Most kitchen manufacturers will buy in their timber doors from a joinery manufacturer. I'm surprised the OP person didn't offer to do that.

Peter

There are often minimum quantity requirements when dealing with manufacturers /wholesalers