Thread: Celery Top Pine

Try Lazarides.

Already tried Lazarides ... they have had none for a couple of years.

Originally Posted by John Samuel

I am looking for a supplier of celery top pine, preferably quarter cut and preferably in Brisbane.

Can anyone help guide me in the right direction?

Thanks.

hi John

out of curiosity,
why does it have to be Celery Top pine
why does it have to be quarter cut
how much do you need


perhaps you'll need to buy it direct from Tasmania

Ian!

Great to hear from you again.

As you know, I am still something of a novice. Some time before I came to this forum I made a dining room suite. The table top was made from solid Vic Ash, quarter cut, in a diamond pattern so the radial stripes radiated out from the centre. It was stained mahogany, so it matched the other furniture in the room and finished with highly polished acid cure gloss lacquer. It was very pretty.

So far so good ... however, this was before you enlightened me about the evils of wood movement. Out of ignorance, I had put a border around the table. The lacquer cracked where the border met the main body of the top, getting worse as one moves from the centre of the table edge towards the corners, as anyone who understood wood movement would predict. The good news is that the seams along the sides of the equilateral triangles that make up the main body of the top have not moved/cracked at all.

Now I must replace the top. This time there will be no border, and I am keen to use timber that has minimal movement and is reasonably dense (I often use red cedar when concerned about movement, but it is a bit soft for a table top (I have grandchildren)). The frame of the table has a ledge all the way around, so I can drill oversize holes through this ledge and use flat-headed screws and washers to fasten the top so it can still move with humidity changes (screws/washers recessed into the ledge).

My search for a reasonably dense timber that had minimum movement and where the radial stripe was reasonably prominent produced celery top pine as the no.1 contender. Other timbers are around. NG Rosewood is also pretty good. It is another timber that I use regularly (when I can get pretty timber) because it is a good medium density timber with low movement.

Right now I am in the middle of doing a statistical analysis on timber movement, correlating some CSIRO data on timber movement rates with data from Bootle. I should finish it this weekend. If the correlation works, I'll be able to estimate rates of movement for all the timbers in Bootle given a 10% moisture change, but the study is not yet finished.

Here is some of the CSIRO data (Published in AWR - % movement based on 10% moisture change - measured not calculated - ranked by radial movement). Celery top pine combines good density with low movement (both radial and tangential). I love the red banksia, but can never seem to find it in boards. I recall my father and grandfather using celery top for boat building when I was a kid. Now I know why.

The radial figure for red cedar is estimated by me using a couple of other sources. It calculated as 1%, but I have upped it to 1.1% to be on the safe side. It was the only data point missing in the original CSIRO data.

Timber	Density	Tangential	Radial
River Banksia	476	3.1	1
White Cedar	473	2.3	1.1
Silver Quandong	466	2.4	1.1
Red banksia	618	4	1.1
Aust Red Cedar	439	2	1.1
Celery Top Pine	644	1.9	1.2
White Cheesewood	396	1.9	1.3
Northern Silky Oak	522	3.1	1.3
Kauri	461	1.7	1.4
Huon Pine	537	2.7	1.4
Southern Silky Oak	620	3.2	1.4

Try the source Celery Top Pine » Island Specialty Timbers they deliver.

Also try Tasmanian Special Timbers. Good to deal with.

These guys would have stock of CTP, not sure about delivery though.

Celery Top Pine Timber
or
Quality Green & Dry Timber products at affordable prices - Phillips Sawmill Pty Ltd

Philip.

Thanks guys.

Overseas at the moment. Will follow up when I get home.

Phillips Sawmill are good too. Bought a heap from them a few years ago.

Thanks Alex. Will follow up.

Corina timbers in Somerset Tas would be worth a try, I have always found them very good to deal with, even in small quantities and the quality has been good.

Originally Posted by John Samuel

Ian!

Great to hear from you again.

As you know, I am still something of a novice. Some time before I came to this forum I made a dining room suite. The table top was made from solid Vic Ash, quarter cut, in a diamond pattern so the radial stripes radiated out from the centre. It was stained mahogany, so it matched the other furniture in the room and finished with highly polished acid cure gloss lacquer. It was very pretty.

So far so good ... however, this was before you enlightened me about the evils of wood movement. Out of ignorance, I had put a border around the table. The lacquer cracked where the border met the main body of the top, getting worse as one moves from the centre of the table edge towards the corners, as anyone who understood wood movement would predict. The good news is that the seams along the sides of the equilateral triangles that make up the main body of the top have not moved/cracked at all.

Now I must replace the top. This time there will be no border, and I am keen to use timber that has minimal movement and is reasonably dense (I often use red cedar when concerned about movement, but it is a bit soft for a table top (I have grandchildren)). The frame of the table has a ledge all the way around, so I can drill oversize holes through this ledge and use flat-headed screws and washers to fasten the top so it can still move with humidity changes (screws/washers recessed into the ledge).

My search for a reasonably dense timber that had minimum movement and where the radial stripe was reasonably prominent produced celery top pine as the no.1 contender. Other timbers are around. NG Rosewood is also pretty good. It is another timber that I use regularly (when I can get pretty timber) because it is a good medium density timber with low movement.

Right now I am in the middle of doing a statistical analysis on timber movement, correlating some CSIRO data on timber movement rates with data from Bootle. I should finish it this weekend. If the correlation works, I'll be able to estimate rates of movement for all the timbers in Bootle given a 10% moisture change, but the study is not yet finished.

Here is some of the CSIRO data (Published in AWR - % movement based on 10% moisture change - measured not calculated - ranked by radial movement). Celery top pine combines good density with low movement (both radial and tangential). I love the red banksia, but can never seem to find it in boards. I recall my father and grandfather using celery top for boat building when I was a kid. Now I know why.

The radial figure for red cedar is estimated by me using a couple of other sources. It calculated as 1%, but I have upped it to 1.1% to be on the safe side. It was the only data point missing in the original CSIRO data.

Timber	Density	Tangential	Radial
River Banksia	476	3.1	1
White Cedar	473	2.3	1.1
Silver Quandong	466	2.4	1.1
Red banksia	618	4	1.1
Aust Red Cedar	439	2	1.1
Celery Top Pine	644	1.9	1.2
White Cheesewood	396	1.9	1.3
Northern Silky Oak	522	3.1	1.3
Kauri	461	1.7	1.4
Huon Pine	537	2.7	1.4
Southern Silky Oak	620	3.2	1.4

Hi John,

you're an engineer aren't you, I think I can tell -- I'm one too

you're worrying too much.
with timber movement it's usually far easier to find a wood you like, a design you like, and then build around the expansion/contraction issue -- rather than try and find a timber that has no or minimal movement.

veneer is one option, another is screws in slots as you propose, and there's many others

even the top you're intending to replace may be salvageable -- the collective brains trust would need photos before expressing a conclusion.

Originally Posted by ian

Hi John,

you're an engineer aren't you, I think I can tell -- I'm one too

you're worrying too much.
with timber movement it's usually far easier to find a wood you like, a design you like, and then build around the expansion/contraction issue -- rather than try and find a timber that has no or minimal movement.

veneer is one option, another is screws in slots as you propose, and there's many others

even the top you're intending to replace may be salvageable -- the collective brains trust would need photos before expressing a conclusion.

Ian, you are close. I left school when I was 15 to become a tradesman, but did some civil and military engineering training in the army. My current work involves industrial statistics.

Actually, I am doing the study just as much for fun and enlightenment as for practical purposes (I should have been an engineer or a scientist ... I get off on this stuff). I'll finish it before doing the final timber selection. Celery top ticks all the boxes, especially with its conspicuous growth rings, but there are other suitable timbers.

You are right about designing around the timber, of course, but in this case I am keen to ensure that movement along the sides of the four smaller squares is minimised. The attached pic looks patchy because of the crappy flash on my phone camera. It looks quite uniform in the flesh.
IMAG0244.jpg

The existing top is certainly salvagable. After about five years the cracking exists only around the border, and that happened in the first year. Once it goes through the sander it will be new again. I'll cut off the borders and park it until I find a use for it. After the borders come off, the top will still be about 1400 square, allowing for the kerf. I am thinking of making a card table with it ... perhaps a drop sided table or similar.

Cheerio!

Originally Posted by jrock_au

Corina timbers in Somerset Tas would be worth a try, I have always found them very good to deal with, even in small quantities and the quality has been good.

Thanks, Jrock. I'll follow up.