Thread: china......

Yep. Pity so few people can see the big picture. You made my day.

Originally Posted by bitingmidge

I understand that the US imports $70 BILLION of furniture from China per year.

I'm not sure about the number either however in most of the woodworking trade publications the general consensus is that China has destroyed our furniture industry. Industry personnel have been quoted as saying that some of the furniture imported from China is being sold RETAIL for less than the cost of the timber.

And then the fact that the exchange rate of the Chinese currency is government controlled makes for an extremely un-level playing field.

I don't think China is solely to blame, I think it's a strange aspect of our modern culture. I get mystified by peoples obsession with shopping, even planning holidays around good places to shop! Of course this obsession has to be fed and maintained by continually changing fashion, obsolescence and making things cheaper so that they can be more easily affordable. Look at the Aussie car industry. For years we were all happy with a solidly built, under spec'd (by European and American standards), 6 cylinder Ford or Holden that would last for 20 years and no one cared if it looked dated. Now, apparently, both companies are going backward because most people want something smaller/better/cheaper and our local manufacturers haven't kept up with what the local market wants. I noted recently from 'antiques' programs on Foxtel that in the UK the prices of "brown furniture", basically craftsman/well built wooden products have been going backwards in value over the last 5 years. 150 to 200 year old well made pieces are worth a fraction of what they were worth a few years ago, and as far as I could see, sell for less than the cost of the materials. My neighbours, in their late 50's, have recently updated from solid wood to white and shiny 'minimalism'. We benefited by buying some very nice pieces at good prices. Cost wasn't a factor to them, but I suspect that all the goods were imported.

Just my thoughts, albeit long windedly

Theres 2 sides to every penny.

We export far more dollar value to China than we import.

If we didn't import they wouldn't have the money to buy from us.

I have been looking at buying a new leather lounge, the one we bought 5 years ago (Australian manufactured) is worn out actually stuffed is abetter word.

Recliner lounges mechanisms replaced twice under warranty welded by myself the last time. leather so thin its worn holes in places or torn.

So decided maybe I should go for the top of the line and pay for it. Moran I'm told is as good as it gets but guess what. No longer made here being made in CHINA as from the end of the month- reason -To improve the quality!!!!!!

PS Did anyone see the news (on Tuesday) item on violins being made in China? they are now making top quality violins for under US$200. and one of the american makers said they were better than his.

Originally Posted by echnidna

Theres 2 sides to every penny.

We export far more dollar value to China than we import.

If we didn't import they wouldn't have the money to buy from us.

Compared to the rest of the world Australia barely rates a percentage point on Chinese export figures - it is the other way around - we need them to export our primary resources to so that we can have the money and access to buy their high volume (cheap) low skilled worker fabricated (crap) products.

This is one of the reasons the "Strong Australian Economy" is tolerating such a deluge of cheap imported products.

If we told them to stuff it, they would just shrug their shoulders, say o.k. and go any buy their coal, gas and steel elsewhere...

Cheers,

Originally Posted by wajor

I noted recently from 'antiques' programs on Foxtel that in the UK the prices of "brown furniture", basically craftsman/well built wooden products have been going backwards in value over the last 5 years. 150 to 200 year old well made pieces are worth a fraction of what they were worth a few years ago, and as far as I could see, sell for less than the cost of the materials. My neighbours, in their late 50's, have recently updated from solid wood to white and shiny 'minimalism'. We benefited by buying some very nice pieces at good prices. Cost wasn't a factor to them, but I suspect that all the goods were imported.

Just my thoughts, albeit long windedly

Or, more concisely: value is what people are prepared to pay. I recently inherited a Chippendale replica handcarved walnut bedroom that cost in 1950 the equivalent of about 60,000 of today's inflated dollars. Asked about current value so I could insure it, and was told $500-$1000. Expletives deleted. I am sleeping in it.

I wonder what we'd be paying for cheap Chinese if they met ILO labour standards and pursued sustainable forestry practices?

Originally Posted by rsser

I wonder what we'd be paying for cheap Chinese if they met ILO labour standards and pursued sustainable forestry practices?

Probably not more than 10% more (excluding the environmental costs - we are not much better on that score ourselves, anyway).

The real issue is that China still has 700 million peasants who live on less than $2 a day eager to enter the industrial workforce.

How did you arrive at the 'not 10% more' figure F&E?

Not very scientifically, I am afraid. Long time since I worked in the field. Basically, salary on-costs in OECD countries are about 40% and ILO compliance would be a comparatively minor factor. 10% sounds reasonably safe. The cost of upgrading plant safety should also be in that range, and probably is being taken care of by the rapid construction of new plants that comply with the latest requirements.

Fair 'nuff.

And if non-poverty base salary costs were paid, actual costs of the timber resource inc. carbon and replacement externalities etc, as noted above .... ?

Chinese made products aren't necessarily a lot worse than their Australian made counterparts, but they will ALWAYS be cheaper while Chinese living and working standards are so much lower than Australia.

I sure as hell wouldn't want to work 14 + hour days, 6 or 7 days a week for a pittance in pay. I don't think most Australians would. We're pretty happy to buy the product of the culture though. I bought a mujingfang smoothing plane from carbatec today (the last one left) - $35. These things are hand made! A similar HNT Gordon plane would be closer to $200.

No matter how you cut it, Australia can't compete on price with China because the playing field isn't level, as others have pointed out. And we can't maintain our luxurious lifestyles of today without the cheap chinese goods. It's not just furniture - how many of you own chinese made woodworking machinery? Would you have as many machines if you had to buy european? Most of us weekend warriors probably wouldn't own ANY. Check the label on your clothes - they're probably made in China as well. Either that or some other third world country. I'm as guilty as any.

We're going to have to get used to living with less if we want to be able to get away with not buying chinese made.

Originally Posted by Lignum

Yes and its so easy to turn it to your advantage.

I know its no good for the industry as a whole, but as an individual furniture maker its a bonus for me. So easy to convince people that its worth paying a lot more for "local" quality that wont fall apart in a few years and can be handed down to the next generation.

Seems strange to think it, but if there wasnt the huge amount of imports, there would be more local makers and i would be struggling to compete with them. I should feel guilty, but i dont

Hey Lignum it is not often we agree but yes you SHOULD feel guilty.

Ross