Thread: Circular Sawbench Accident Reports

Like the old saying goes "familiarity breeds contempt". However most accidents (and I stress MOST) do have a stupidity content. I must admit though I have never thought of cutting fishing line on my table saw and now I definately will not. :confused:

Regards
Bob

It's very dangerous to say most accidents have a stupidity content. They only have a stupidity content when you look back on them or when somebody else looks at what you do. At the time, it never seems as if what you are doing is stupid.

Most accidents tend to occur when you are doing something out of the ordinary - it may be task you do everyday but this time it is slightly different.

One of the big problems is that you normally get into that "out of the ordinary" stage in a gradual manner. You do one thing different, and then another, and then another and before long what you are doing is dangerous - but each step towards danger was a small step and not enough to raise an alarm.

The best way to deal with this is to step back and think about what you are doing - take the whole thing into account and ask yourself if what you are doing is safe and if you are uncomfortable, is there a safer way of doing it?

The fishing line one is the most horrifying, cutting yourself on anything is bad enough but that fishing line pulling him to the blade just sends shivers down me spine.

Familiarity does indeed breed contempt, but a relatively minor accident very early on has in my case created a life long respect for every moving blade.

Fatigue is the biggest problem I find.

Dave

I can't see how it is dangerous to say that MOST(again I stress MOST) accidents have a stupidity content. I have been involved in the building industry directly & indirectly for over 40 years without any serious injury. However a large majority of the injuries I have witnessed, or been made aware of, have been caused by someone who should know better taking short cuts with little or no regard for their own nor anyone else's safety. It doesn't matter how you look at it nor who looks at it, this constitutes the stupidity factor.
It may not seem stupid at the time but several people I know personally who have lost fingers,parts of hands, and in one case an arm, freely admit that the incident was caused by their own or anothers carelessness. In my humble opinion that is just plain b----y stupid.
By the way the guy with the fishing line didn't take gradual steps, instead of getting a knife, chisel or scissors, he wrapped the fishing line around both hands and stuck it in a rotating blade. Now thats rather silly don't you think.
Unfortunately in the real world the difference between theory and practise is a yawning chasm
I apologise for the nature of this reply but the result of accidents effect more than just the injured party.
I will now climb down off my soapbox.
Regards
Bob

Bob is putting it bluntly (and we don't often want to hear the truth told bluntly) but it's true, stupidity is a major factor in most accidents. To paraphrase: "accidents don't happen, they are caused". And mostly this is true, I've had one accident that "happened" and a few minor ones that were caused by either my own lack of knowledge (when first in the trade), stupidity (should've known better, but rushing trying to make a buck), or fatigue. The one accident that "happened", I stepped on a roof batten which turned out to have a huge knot on the underside, it broke and I fell down through the opening between the rafters and battens, scraping myself badly but luckily catching hold of the rafter to arrest my fall. I guess my stupidity factor must be fairly low as three stitches, a broken toe and three cracked ribs is my score in the last 20 years.
When it comes down to it, working when fatigued or without knowledge is stupidity.
(Stepping on a piece of faulty timber that no one has spotted even though it's been handled at least 3 times is just plain bad luck).

Mick

Bob,

I'm not saying that stupidity isn't a factor - it's probably one of the most important along with fatigue, time restraints, working out of your skill range, using the incorrect tools/techniques (although maybe doing some of those is stupidity anyway).

But my concern is that at the time of the accident people don't believe that what they are doing is stupid - it is only to an onlooker or in hindsight that it appears that way. They see it as doing it more efficiently, or they assume that as they have done the task before and it was OK, then it will be again.

If you were to tell people how not to have accdident, you couldn't just say "don't do anything stupid" - you need to educate people on the causes and getting people to think about what they are doing and the consequences should it go wrong is an important step.

PS Yes I agree that the fishing line man is an idiot

Simon

I agree with Bob that MOST ( if not all) accidents are caused by stupidity, and working with tools when fatigued, time restraints, working out of your skill range, using the incorrect tools/techniques are all plain stupid. IMHO there is no other way to describe it.

I also agree with Simon that it is not helpfull to tell someone that they are stupid when you are trying to educate them in preventing accidents and it is better to get them to think about what they are doing and how to prevent accidents.

However what I think is really, really stupid is publishing jigs or advocating a certain procedure whereby the user is required to operate a machine without its built in safeguards without incorporating new safeguards. I see this often on the webb and BB's.

I make a point of ensuring that my jigs are safe to use and if I could not make them safe I would not publish them. I just hope that in this litiguous world they have adequate public liability insurance to cover their eventual liability when sued after an accident.


Peter.

I generally use the term "lack of attention" rather than stupidity if I am running an OH&S course as most people don't think they are stupid but they can all relate to a lack of attention.

But it all boils down to stupidity.

That should be compulsory reading with every TS/CS sold.
very sobering.
I think I was lucky to have a scary, yet not injurious, kickback very early in my CS usage and have utmost respect ever since.
I use chainsaws a bit and find I have more apprehension with the CS than the chainsaw yet its the chainsaw that certainly appears more dangerous.

Geez,

I'm lookng to buy my first cicular saw and thats got me terrified!

Please, direct me to the 12 Volume Encyclopedia of CS/TS Safety.
Fear is of the tool is dangerous no?

LL

While the article is confined to table saws basically it proves that commonsense is necessary for all tools.

A certain amount of fear of the tool is a good thing as it should help avoid the stupid mistakes we all make at times.

Incidentally the power tool that results in the most injuries in Australia is the angle grinder with a cut off disc.

Bob,

I agree with your sentiments but I prefer the word 'respect' to the word 'fear'. I think that being afraid of a tool or machine can be a factor in accidents. You need to feel confident when using one and I have seen some people literally quaking with fear at using a circular saw or angle grinder. I don't think you can concentrate on what you are doing if you are in a nervous state. People who are afraid of machines or tools should not use them.

The point is, how do people know that what they are doing is dangerous? If you do something and get away with it, you may never know how lucky you were. I'm sure I have some practices that are potentially dangerous. In fact if I think of some of the things I have done in the past, there is no doubt that they were dangerous.

There are elements of danger in many things that we take for granted. I think you need to make the judgement yourself as to whether the risk is acceptable. In some cases, the risk is easily identified. Jumping out of an aeroplane, rock climbing, whitewater rafting - all three of these things can result in death but thousands of people do them every day of the week. The most dangerous thing I've ever done was while on a rafting trip down the Nymboida river.

With regard to the article linked here, I think most people would be able to see where the danger lies, but some of the cases are not so obvious and some are just downright freaky. No-one expects to have a riving knife hurled at them and what about the employee who wasn't even using the saw and was killed when something went wrong?

Hi silentc

The point you made about "how do people know what they are doing is dangerous?" is the one I'm interested in.

I should at this stage mention that I work as a safety engineer, however I deal mainly with major hazard industries (eg mining, oil & gas, etc) where systems are in place and compliance is a lot more accepted. Our organisation does very little in the realms of safety in the home or in small worksites (ie a small business tradesman), so I'm certainly not passing myself off as an authority on safety in the workshop.

However, I've been thinking how the work we do would apply to the circumstances I find myself in when I'm in my workshop etc.

One of the main approaches we use when assessing a dangerous activity is:
1. look at what are the critical controls that are protecting you from injury
2. determine that those controls are appropriate (and improve if necessary)
3. (the most important one) ensure that when you do an actvity, you are not bypassing/working around one of the critical controls
4. if you are bypassing a critical control, then replace it with something else

As I said, this is fine in process plant where there are procedures and systems to ensure that controls are in place, not sure how it goes in the workshop.

I agree its the things that you dont know are dangerous that are the most dangerous. I wish there was a short course on table-saw safety one could do, where these things could be pointed out to you. Anyone know of any such course ? Maybe for routers as well.

Arron