Thread: Do craftsmen use powertools for jointing

Originally Posted by Woodwould

You'd be surprised. There are rough workers in every trade in every era, but I've restored some pieces of 17th and 18th century furniture and the quality of construction defies belief - especially given the tools of the period. I doubt if most people today could match the best of the 18th century with hand or power tools.

That’s a little misleading. Yes their were some exceptional crafstmen making some exceptional furniture in the 18th century, just like there are some exceptional craftsmen doing exceptional work in 2009, just like there is dodgy work in both eras. The one thing that I would be positive of, is the ratio of quality makers per population would be massively weighted in our favour now days, mainly due to the sharing of technology and modern teaching via books, schools, the net etc. There is some mind boggling furniture out their. it’s a joy to see.

Originally Posted by wheelinround

Old craftsmen were masters of deception mass production was not an issue time constraints and they worked with greener wood than we do now.

Not strictly accurate; certainly up until the middle of the 17th century, there wasn't the same need to have timber as dry as we now like it because buildings were unsealed and therefore the humidity inside pretty well matched that of outdoors.

Although glass was used in Europe from about the 7th century (mainly for ornament and expensive eclesiastical stained windows, its use for household windows didn't become widespread until the latter half of the 17th century.

Not coincidently, the new breed of cabinetmakers appeared around this time and their much finer work necessitated fully air-dried timber, but even so, they invented new joints to counteract the movement of timber as dwellings still weren't as well sealed as they are today.

Originally Posted by Wongo

I cannot agree with that.

Can't we find that ability like they did in the first place?

Can we build the pyramid they same way they did thousand of years ago? Yes we can.
Can we build the great wall of china the same way they did thousand of years ago? Yes we can.

Reproducing stonework isn't quite the same as fine cabinet work. Any stonemason with enough time, a large workforce and a good supply of suitable stone could build a pyramid. There are no secrets to stone building.

It's all a bit hypothetical really. You can't say "this would be".

What I do know is that a lot of machinery has been developed in order to make a particular repetitive task easier and quicker to perform. No doubt some inventions were abject failures, whilst others have gone on to become almost mandatory in a modern workshop. That would include machines such as the table saw, jointer, thicknesser, band saw and power tools like the router and the hand drill. They would be ubiquitous in just about any modern joinery. Is that because the people who work in those joineries are less skilled than the craftsmen of old, or just differently skilled?

The thing is that if you brought a lot of these ancient craftsmen to the modern era, they would probably reject machinery initially as the work of the devil or whatever. But then just about everything in the modern world would be cause for concern for them I think.

However if you get past that, why would anybody use a handsaw to rip a board when a table saw will do it in a fraction of the time, more accurately, and over and over and over without getting a sore arm? The only reason, apart from masochism, is to recreate the old ways. For the same reason people dress up in period costume and re-enact battles, or fix up old vintage cars, or ride in steam trains.

If you could show one of those ancients that he could be more productive using a machine, giving him more leisure time or more time to make things, I'm sure he would come around. Actually, they did, didn't they? Eventually...

Originally Posted by Lignum

That’s a little misleading. Yes their were some exceptional crafstmen making some exceptional furniture in the 18th century, just like there are some exceptional craftsmen doing exceptional work in 2009, just like there is dodgy work in both eras. The one thing that I would be positive of, is the ratio of quality makers per population would be massively weighted in our favour now days, mainly due to the sharing of technology and modern teaching via books, schools, the net etc. There is some mind boggling furniture out their. it’s a joy to see.

I don't think I was being misleading. I would agree that per capita, there are probably more "craftsmen" today than back in the 18th century. The term 'craftsmen' raises a few points: There are indeed plenty of modern woodworkers who turn out some remarkably fine work, but I wouldn't call them masters of cabinetmaking like their predecessors.

I still maintain that the earlier workers' skills were more encompassing and if one had to weigh the level of skill against the available tools, the earlier workers would win hands down.

Does being a craftsman preclude one from doing it for enjoyment?

Personally (and I come from a position of little knowledge here) I believe that power tools can produce quality work faster than can be done with hand tools, with at least the same level of quality.

But if you are producing something for enjoyment's sake, then there is a special pleasure in using hand tools to produce quality work. I love the relative peace and quiet of using hand tools as opposed to power tools. I love the feel of a well balanced chisel or hand plane in my hands. I love the feel of using a nicely sharpened blade.

My .2c.

Who’s a better batsman, Bradman or Tendulkar?

They did use power tools - even if they were human driven such as in a saw pit. You can add on to that the other source of power, that dying breed called apprentices.
Jim

Originally Posted by Lignum

Who’s a better batsman, Bradman or Tendulkar?

That's a good point. Times have changed, timbers, customers etc.
Jim

Originally Posted by Woodwould

There are indeed plenty of modern woodworkers who turn out some remarkably fine work, but I wouldn't call them masters of cabinetmaking like their predecessors.

So Aussie Geoff Hannah wouldn’t get a look in then?

This is the old "journey versus destination" argument again.

At the end of the day, how you arrive there is not important. If you like using hand tools, then use them. If you like using power tools then use them. It's takes a lot of skill to learn how to use a hand plane, but then you don't just switch on a router and blindly attack a bit of wood with it. How much skill is involved in each is debatable but also irrelevant in my opinion.

Unless your ultimate aim is "working wood with hand tools", which it appears to be for many here, then calling yourself a 'craftsman' irrespective of how you go about it should be acceptable.

Personally I'm a bit in between. I like using hand tools but I don't have the patience to flatten a board by hand. I run it over the jointer and through the thicknesser and the job is done. It is no less flat as a result. In fact it is probably flatter - definitely flatter than I could make it. We have collectively "lost" the skill of flattening with a hand plane but as the same or better result can be achieved with the method that has replaced it, what is the problem? Let the antiquarians worry about preserving the old ways and I will get on with it.

Originally Posted by Wongdai

Does being a craftsman preclude one from doing it for enjoyment?

Personally (and I come from a position of little knowledge here) I believe that power tools can produce quality work faster than can be done with hand tools, with at least the same level of quality.

But if you are producing something for enjoyment's sake, then there is a special pleasure in using hand tools to produce quality work. I love the relative peace and quiet of using hand tools as opposed to power tools. I love the feel of a well balanced chisel or hand plane in my hands. I love the feel of using a nicely sharpened blade.

My .2c.

My fil was a real craftsman of the old school but he used power tools as a matter of course. However, when it came to making his own furniture he did it the old way cutting dovetails etc by hand using some of the tools his father had used. He said there was more satisfaction that way.
Jim

Originally Posted by Wongdai

Does being a craftsman preclude one from doing it for enjoyment?

I think most woodworking 'craftsmen' these days are amateurs, so no, being a craftsman wouldn't exclude one from enjoying woodworking.

Originally Posted by Wongdai

Personally (and I come from a position of little knowledge here) I believe that power tools can produce quality work faster than can be done with hand tools, with at least the same level of quality.

If we're talking hand-held powertools and not machinery, then yes, some of the more basic procedures can be performed quicker e.g. drilling and routing, but when talking about true cabinetmaking skills, there's actually little room for powertools in my experience. Mind you, I havent had any instruction in woodworking, so I may not be approaching it like the majority of woodworkers.

Originally Posted by Lignum

So Aussie Geoff Hannah wouldn’t get a look in then?

I couldn't answer that as I've never heard of him.