Thread: Do craftsmen use powertools for jointing

Originally Posted by Different

Perhaps you knowledge of all things relating to furniture is not so broad as you would like to think!

I never claimed to have a broad knowledge of furniture - quite the opposite in fact. My penchant is for furniture (and most other aspects of life) from the period 1680 to 1820.

Originally Posted by Different

Perhaps you stopped learning and being interested in what other people were doing a long time ago!

Au contraire. I went to college with predominantly modern artists in a number of different artistic practices and found the experience envigorating. I am also a proponent of a truly cutting edge art in my day job.

Originally Posted by Different

Perhaps your love of all things ancient has blinded you to the exquisite works of this time!

My fondness is not for anything ancient (although coincidently, my wife is an Egyptologist), rather I appreciate life and the arts of the late 17th and early 18th centuries, but I also admire many modern artists and have sponsored several in the recent past.

Going back to the original question, I believe a craftsman will use whatever tools he sees fit and that often includes machinery.
However, there are two benefits from learning to use hand tools and I reckon the second is more important than the first.
Firstly you acquire manual dexterity etc.
Secondly you get to understand wood and its vagaries. After all. wood is what it is all about. Once you understand wood (if anyone ever does completely) machines become easier to use. Many of the problems arising from machine use come from not understanding the feed timber and its stresses.
Jim

Originally Posted by Woodwould

I never claimed to have a broad knowledge of furniture - quite the opposite in fact. My penchant is for furniture (and most other aspects of life) from the period 1680 to 1820.
.

Yet you are adamant craftsmen/cabinetmakers were superior a few hundred years ago compared to now. How can that be if you admit your knowledge is limited with modern craftsmen and furniture styles?

Maybe Ross has a point. And you still haven’t answered which in specific skills did 17th and 18th century craftsmen excel over modern 21st century makers to the point they would “run away with the prize”

Firstly you acquire manual dexterity etc.
Secondly you get to understand wood and its vagaries.

Again, I fail to see how chopping a mortice with a pig sticker gives you anything much in the way of either of these two. I think most of use will use hand planes, chisels and scrapers to do the careful work, but how does using a router to make a mortice put you any less in touch with the material you are working with? Making a mortice is such a mundane task. I think that the dexterity and feel you refer to is much more important in the fitting and finishing aspects.

We are so lucky in this day and age to be able to choose which method suits us best. If you - like me, enjoy using machinery then go ahead and use it and especially ENJOY it. I get a great feeling of satisfaction when a project fits together well, and I for one can say honestly I cannot create perfect joints everytime without the use of power tools. This is because I only do woodwork as a hobby and have only recently taken it up, the last time I did woodwork was 30yrs ago at school. I need more practice to get more competant with hand tools again.
This begs the question - Do I practice using hand tools more to get more proficient or continue using power tools to do the job for me? This again is a choice and I am the only one who can choose what is right for me. As its a hobby its all about enjoyment and stress relief.


Stu

You don't draw pictures on the scorecard

Originally Posted by Lignum

Yet you are adamant craftsmen/cabinetmakers were superior a few hundred years ago compared to now. How can that be if you admit your knowledge is limited with modern craftsmen and furniture styles?

You have misinterpreted what I wrote. I said my penchant is for furniture (and most other aspects of life) from the period 1680 to 1820; that doesn't necessarily limit my knowledge or general appreciation of woodworking to that era. In fact, I further explained my appreciation of modern woodworkers.

Originally Posted by Lignum

Maybe Ross has a point.

Ross seldom has a point; his objective is to stir.

Originally Posted by Lignum

And you still haven’t answered which in specific skills did 17th and 18th century craftsmen excel over modern 21st century makers to the point they would “run away with the prize”

Up until the mid to late19th century, people were more astute generally. They had to be to survive. In these technologically advanced times, we take an awful lot for granted and largely overlook many of the fundamentals of life and work. Early craftsmen's knowledge was far more encompassing and as a result, their skill levels were more highly attuned. You only have to look at the products of those workers two hundred years ago in architecture, glass, silver, porcelain wood etc.

Cost aside, there just aren't the quality (let alone quantity) of skilled workers today to even attempt to reproduce a fraction of what they accomplished back then. Sure there are specialists in many of the followings who are called upon to restore, or make copies, but they are a very small band who constantly study and research to broaden their understanding to the point where they can emulate their forefathers.

Most countries' cultural departments or museums have lists of specialists who they can draw on, but the lists are surprisingly small and some 'crafts' are no longer represented at all.

Originally Posted by Woodwould

Cost aside, there just aren't the quality (let alone quantity) of skilled workers today to even attempt to reproduce a fraction of what they accomplished back then. .

Again you have dodged the question on which specific skills they were better at that today’s counterparts. I know all the blah, blah, blah about times were tough and they didn’t have this and that, but that’s not my question. It’s about the skill level comparison and why it isn’t as good now. It amazes me how you have little knowledge of the quality of today’s craftsmen and the staggering quality they are able to produce.

Originally Posted by Lignum

It amazes me how you have little knowledge of the quality of today’s craftsmen and the staggering quality they are able to produce.

There's no point my responding further. I thought I made my views on current craftsmen and their work fairly plain. I'll leave you to work what ever bee is under your bonnet out yourself.

Originally Posted by Woodwould

There's no point my responding further. I thought I made my views on current craftsmen and their work fairly plain. I'll leave you to work what ever bee is under your bonnet out yourself.

No probs Woodwould, I just asked a question and I thought you might have answered it, thats all. We will leave it at that then

Originally Posted by silentC

Again, I fail to see how chopping a mortice with a pig sticker gives you anything much in the way of either of these two. I think most of use will use hand planes, chisels and scrapers to do the careful work, but how does using a router to make a mortice put you any less in touch with the material you are working with? Making a mortice is such a mundane task. I think that the dexterity and feel you refer to is much more important in the fitting and finishing aspects.

Most of what you say I agree with. However, chopping a mortise with a chisel does give you confidence with tools which is very important. To put it into perspective, I haven't chopped a mortice for years.
I'm not sure we're on the same wavelength when you mention being, 'in touch with the material'. I don't mean anything spiritual, just the recognition that the wood has characteristics that need to be taken into account - grain, swelling or shrinking with changes in humidity etc. Basic stuff or course but I think that using hand tools can highlight these problems more quickly and more safely than using machines from the word go. However, that's just an opinion.
Like you I dislike mundane tasks but many people enjoy them - never understood the urge to knit myself.
Jim

I'm not sure we're on the same wavelength when you mention being, 'in touch with the material'. I don't mean anything spiritual, just the recognition that the wood has characteristics that need to be taken into account

No I understood what you meant and I agree. I just think you get more of a feel for those things when you try to use a hand plane than you do picking out a mortice. I'm assuming here that most woodworkers will use finishing tools in addition to whatever method of joinery they prefer. I know that some woodworkers work with dressed timber and probably the extent of finishing is to sand before slapping on some polyurethane.

Coming back to the original query, if you're using a machine to dig a mortice but you're using a handplane to smooth the rails and stiles before assembly, I don't think you're missing out on too much in that regard.

Just a couple of quick observations:

Many years ago I acquired a DVD that had Frank Klaus? hand cutting dovetails. I got excited about it, went out to the shed and tried it. No worries cutting to the line with the saw, problem was chiselling the redgum. It was damn hard work and to this day I wonder about some of the timber that Frank was chiselling.

In the end I bought a Leigh jig and that works for me.

Also, Oz timbers are apparently much harder than some of the stuff overseas. I'd sure like to see someone DAR say 6 redgum boards 200 by 30mm by hand. And then glue up a nice table top.

Another one, the "best" timber was available in the earlier years. These days, we pay a higher premium for working with the best timber, so I think the old hands had that advantage.

As for cutting mortices by hand, I've got a Leigh FMT plus a Domino and even so still think I need a decent hollow chisel morticer for large tables.

But I do respect those that persist without power tools and machinery. And their skills.

These days the proliferation of near "industrial" quality WW machines at affordable prices has brought many novices into the game. That's a good thing, isn't it?

Jeff

Originally Posted by jefferson

These days the proliferation of near "industrial" quality WW machines at affordable prices has brought many novices into the game. That's a good thing, isn't it?

Jeff

Have to agree.
No matter what era you look at, the work done by craftsmen was done using the most up-to-date technology of the time.

Look at the printing press as a classic example. Suddenly the illuminated text of the monks was seen as a luxury and many more people had access to books and their production. They probably still produced these works by hand but I'll bet it would have been at a premium. How many hand written books do you have on your shelves?

I have had a go at dovetails and M&T's and have convinced myself that, if the electrons stopped flowing, I could get by, but why bother when I have a machine to do it for me?

I think it's inevitable that as technology progresses arts and skills will be lost, but by the same token, others will be gained.

Ian