Thread: How to deal with Interlocked Grain

If you don't have a drum sander then with the section being small, put them through a table/panel saw with a shape blade, then use a Cabinet Scraper with a fresh burr applied, lastly sand, do not sand before using the Cabinet Scraper

I’ve planed Qld Red Gum, Jarrah and Karri with the same horrible interlocked grain; granted these are “softer” woods but the principle is the same. You can read the grain and yes sometimes you have to change direction more than once on a plank. My tools of choice are 4’s and 4-1/2’s fitted with HSS blades, either with the close set cap iron (Veritas & Stanley HSS) or a 10 degree back bevel (Titan HSS). I have also found a high angled blade on a LA jack is pretty good for deeper cuts with minimal tear-out.

For final smoothing though you can’t fault a scraper plane; I have a 1940’s Stanley 112 and recently acquired a Veritas model to compare against it.

Originally Posted by Fallen Woodwork

What did you have in mind? If I have something of suitable size and quality I'm happy to post it to you just for the cost of postage.
If you like the grain in the first 4 pics I can send you that piece - its 400 x 50 x 51mm and just under 1.4kg

Proviso is that you post here how well you plane it and/or what you make from it
I'll extend this offer to those who have helped and contributed to the thread already. Up to 1.5kg each of unburnt, crack free ironwood - enough to make a nice handle or two That should keep it under $20 for express postage

Now I need to find a #7 in stock somewhere....
I see toolmart/total tools and ebay have a Stanley #7 for under $400 but I have no idea what quality of cut it will bring
I might have better luck in the market place?
Open to suggestions

I'm a bit boring! I almost exclusively make boxes, but I will say that I've made some pretty nice ones!

The hardest MF wood I've ever used was supplied by a mate for a box and a knife handle - Ringed Gidgee.

JHC was that Fn hard!

But ZOUNDS was it utterly amazing once it was finished. Magic.


Ideas? (since its smallish)

-- Chopsticks
-- Hair comb
-- Wooden spoon / stirer
-- Tongs (as made by fabulous TimberDimensions on Instagram) Click! Click!
-- Netsuke (since you have a Dremel)

Me? I'd make some boxes (insets for lids), some of my Yosegi Robots or simply make it into a feature of a project. I'm doing a bit with shellac and enjoying it (its excellent).

Originally Posted by Fallen Woodwork

Now I need to find a #7 in stock somewhere....
I see toolmart/total tools and ebay have a Stanley #7 for under $400 but I have no idea what quality of cut it will bring
I might have better luck in the market place?
Open to suggestions

Sweet Baby Jesus, avoid buying a plane from a place like TotalTools. You will feel only pain!

HEAPS of 7's on Gumtree. Heaps.

Look at this beauty for only $285.... VINTAGE METAL CORRUGATED STANLEY SWEETHEART NO 7 HAND PLANE TOOL $285 | Hand Tools | Gumtree Australia Port Adelaide Area - Sefton Park | 1287630454

Originally Posted by Fallen Woodwork

What did you have in mind? If I have something of suitable size and quality I'm happy to post it to you just for the cost of postage.
If you like the grain in the first 4 pics I can send you that piece - its 400 x 50 x 51mm and just under 1.4kg

Proviso is that you post here how well you plane it and/or what you make from it
I'll extend this offer to those who have helped and contributed to the thread already. Up to 1.5kg each of unburnt, crack free ironwood - enough to make a nice handle or two That should keep it under $20 for express postage

We could make this a competition! The Cranky Interlocked Demonwood Challenge

Everyone has to pay FW for the postage and all us Wise Advisors have to put our talents on the line with PROOF of our mad hand-tool skills!

Or Fleabay…

English no7, current bid $77 This will out-perform the one from Total Tools, will have tighter machining tolerances, is old enough so that the castings will have no movement left in them and has wooden furniture instead of nasty plastic.

Originally Posted by woodPixel

-- Chopsticks ......... NO
-- Hair comb
-- Wooden spoon / stirer ........... NO
-- Tongs .......... Only for dry stuff
-- Netsuke (since you have a Dremel)

Really, WP, I think it would be inadvisable to use this stuff for food utensils. As I said, I cannot find any reliable figures for the level of toxins in the wood (don't have access to library facilities like I once had), and it may be insignificant for all I know, but I somehow think there's a reasonable amount given people's reactions to the sawdust. I think it would be prudent to avoid that sort of use unless & until you can get a clearance from a reliable source. I'm not a fussy person & am quite happy to use woods like camphor-laurel (which contains low levels of toxins), but I've seen (through case reports) what a few leaves can do to goats & cattle & that makes me very cautious about ironwood!

I've had no major problems working the stuff with hand tools, but as I said, I've only used it in small sizes. Like all very hard woods it scrapes nicely, but removing the sort of tear-out the OP showed above using a scraper plane would be a tedious task indeed - these things take 1 thou shavings at best & some of those pits look at least 1/8" deep - that's at least 125 passes, assuming every pass takes a full cut!

These little smoothers are about the biggest thing I've made with ironwood (other than a mallet head).
Small planes 3.jpg

Cutting out the wedge buttresses in the little solid-bodied woodie caused me much angst, the stuff is really brittle, despite the swirly grain and some bits chipped out. It's quite functional, but it's not as 'slippery' as I expect a wooden-soled plane to be. Terry Gordon used to use ironwood a lot in his early years of plane making but seems to have gone away from it over the last few years - I wonder if he found the same thing?

Of the other woods that have been mentioned as being similar, I'd put ringed gidgee on a par with ironwood, some will plane quite well if you take it slowly with a very sharp blade & close cap-iron, but some will tear out a little no matter how careful you are & needs finishing off with a scraper (a card scraper for these small-sized bits). But as WP said, when you manage to tiger ringed gidgee into shape, you certainly feel it was all worthwhile:
Set a.jpg

P'raps the wood that takes the cake for difficult working in my experience is penda (Xanthostemon sp.). Some pieces I've had were not bad, and turned quite well, but other bits were like splintery cast iron. I don't have any pics of anything I've made from penda (partly 'cos I've not managed to make that much with it!), but this #3-sized smoother is infilled with Solomon Islands ebony (X. melanoxylon), which is very close to penda & was pretty tough stuff, & also brittle like ironwood. It turned out nicely enough in the end , but there were a few strong words spoken in the process. There are a couple of small chips on the front of the finger-hole I wish hadn't happened!
Horn & grip mod b.jpg

I think I've done my time with super-hard woods & won't be rising to WP's challenge, but I think you've got to experience a few woods like this so you can fully appreciate woods like Qld maple or good blackwood...........
Cheers,
Ian

I agree Ian, it is possible to plane iron wood but this is curly grained iron wood the OP is talking about and they are big lumps of timber to boot. It would be some plane blade that would last for two minutes in that stuff and there would be tear out as soon as the blade started to dull.
Save the pain and just stick it through a sander I say. Why a person would want to fuel frustration I have no idea.

Originally Posted by rustynail

I agree Ian, it is possible to plane iron wood but this is curly grained iron wood the OP is talking about and they are big lumps of timber to boot. It would be some plane blade that would last for two minutes in that stuff and there would be tear out as soon as the blade started to dull.
Save the pain and just stick it through a sander I say. Why a person would want to fuel frustration I have no idea.

OK, RN - we are in full agreement again....
Cheers,

Great stuff. Thanks for all the suggestions and shared experiences gents. This has been most helpful
So, to sum up for a numpty:
1. Use a planer only for small pieces or for initial flattening of ironwood if absolutely necessary
2. Get a drum sander
3. Give the Miniata a go

In regards to toxicology, one needs to ingest, inhale or absorb enough of the toxin for adverse effect of any given toxin.
As pointed out inhalation of the dust will result in a rapid effect through all of the above vectors without any respiratory protection. It is well known by traditional locals here not to burn ironwood.
There is definitely credit in being cautious about ironwood.

Without knowing more about this toxin it is entirely possible that it is accumulative.
Daily micro-doses could potentially build up in the blood stream if the toxin cannot be broken down, or eliminated.

If however, for example a serving board is made , it will be coated in either bees wax, linseed, or other such finish to create a barrier. Perhaps not an impervious barrier but it will significantly reduce any absorption through the skin.
Can't help those who might want to chew boards of wood However, I wouldn't encourage this possibility by making oral utensils.


Nevertheless, I would be more concerned with all the plastics, pesticides, chemicals and additives we are consuming on a daily basis from just about every food source, not to mention all the VOC's we breathe. Its no bloody wonder these kids have developmental and behavioural problems and us older ones are suffering all forms of other diseases. But thats a different thread itself.

Back on topic - box making is not boring at all! I'll get the bandsaw this week and cut up some blocks.

I hear what you say about TotalTools - those new Stanelys looked a bit plastic
Thanks for the links to planes

PMs on the way

Originally Posted by IanW

OK, RN - we are in full agreement again....
Cheers,

Phew, that was close.

Terry Gordon used to use ironwood a lot in his early years of plane making but seems to have gone away from it over the last few years - I wonder if he found the same thing?

I spoke to Terry at a couple of the wood shows many years ago, and I know the mob that was supplying him with the Cooktown Ironwood for his planes, from what I recall he liked the Ironwood, but eventually stopped using it because of supply issues.

Ahem. Let me dust off my "professor's" cap for a moment:

Originally Posted by Fallen Woodwork

In regards to toxicology, one needs to ingest, inhale or absorb enough of the toxin for adverse effect of any given toxin......

Spot-on. A very wise chap made the observation many years ago (about 500, actually) that "everything is toxic, there is nothing that is without some degree of toxicity - 'tis the dose which maketh the poison". The man's name was Phillipus Aureolus Theophrastus Bombastus von Hohenheim, so it's hardly surprising he's remembered by his nom de plume of ""Paracelsus". Everything has a 'minimum lethal dose' - even plain, pure water, and common table salt is acutely lethal at about 1100mg per Kg body weight (if you can keep it down long enough).

Originally Posted by Fallen Woodwork

... Without knowing more about this toxin it is entirely possible that it is accumulative.
Daily micro-doses could potentially build up in the blood stream if the toxin cannot be broken down, or eliminated.....

A reasonable concern, cumulative toxins can be nasty & cause much fear among laypersons. There are different ways cumulative toxins work, one is through buildup of the toxin faster than it can be eliminated or neutralised, another is through constant small amounts of damage to an organ caused by sub-lethal doses until it gets to the point it can no longer do its job.

In the case of the toxins in ironwood, it is acute toxicity that is likely to be of most concern. There are several toxins known in species of Erythrophleum, the main ones being cardiac glycosides (they wreck the heart muscle), alkaloids (various effects on organs such as liver & heart) and tannins (which can cause kidney damage). As I said, the only area I'm reasonably familiar with is stock poisonings, and in their case it appears to be the cardiac glycosides that are the culprit, causing acute toxicity & rapid death. While it is conceivable that chronic exposure could result in cumulative damage to heart muscle from the glycosides, or kidney damage from the tannins, it doesn't appear to have been recognised as a problem in the field. That doesn't mean it does not happen but afaik it hasn't been recognised at this point.

Originally Posted by Fallen Woodwork

... If however, for example a serving board is made , it will be coated in either bees wax, linseed, or other such finish to create a barrier. Perhaps not an impervious barrier but it will significantly reduce any absorption through the skin.
Can't help those who might want to chew boards of wood However, I wouldn't encourage this possibility by making oral utensils......

Again, true enough, though what I was concerned about most was using them for a cutting board, which is going to result in small particles of wood getting incorporated into the foodstuff, and if it's anything with a high water content, extractives in the wood are going to be 'sucked out' into the juices. As I said, the actual amounts of toxin that get into the food this way may be insignificant, but when a species is as potent as ironwood, I think it pays to be extra cautious.

As you point out, we are daily exposed to a whole raft of chemicals, not just man-made, but in the perfectly "natural" foods we consume. We have adapted to cope with the levels of toxic substances in a normal diet, our livers are amazing factories that extract the useful substances from the food we eat, process or store it as required, neutralising the "bad" as well as handling other waste products from metabolism & recycling some as essential ingredients in the digestion process. It has amazing powers of fixing itself after various forms of insult (over-indulgence in certain beverages being only one of many! ), & despite the disrespect with which some of us treat it, it goes on doing a sterling job of protecting us from most of those nasties that are out to get us.

But of course, prudence suggests we don't stretch any friendship too far, so a little caution never hurts when it comes to what we ingest.

Now, where's that woodworkers hat.....

Cheers,

I always feel that a scraper is the ultimate go-to after you have planed all you can. By adjusting the amount of "hook", you can determined you "coase" your finish should be and how quickly the material you can remove.