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  1. #1
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    Default How to deal with Interlocked Grain

    Im not sure of this is the right area for this thread - please move if there is a more appropriate forum

    I've got a load of Ironwood (Eryhrophleum Chlorostachs) and Woolybutt (E. Miniata). Not enough have time to turn it all before it gets too dry. To find another use for it I would like to make some serving boards / chopping boards.
    Wont be making end-grain boards so am looking for the easiest way to get a smooth surface with as little tear out as possible .

    For making boards I have a band saw with 310mm height and 465 throat capacity, 330mm H&F lunch box thicknesser, makita cordless planner and random orbital sander - thats it (unless counting a 1200W plunge router as an option)
    Totally understanding that neither of the planners above are going to create a smooth surface without tear out I will need to spend some $ on some more tools.. or do I?

    The attached images of 50x50mm quarter sawn ironwood after a few passes of the cordless planner:
    New blades and minimum planning thickness set
    3 sides turned out okay but tear out evident.




    One face planned in a particular direction was horrible, planning the other direction even worse taking out an end chunk



    Having much to learn about what cut, axis and direction to chose from interlocked grain... and indeed identifying interlocked grain, I am seeking knowledge from those who care to share

    Having read 2-3 hours on smoothing planes, chip breakers, honing angles etc there is much information to wade through.
    The intricacies about smoother planes have been detailed in multiple threads and I will be sure to refer to these when necessary

    I would appreciate simple advice about how to make 300 x 400mm boards as efficiently as possible.
    I need to identify the best way to cut the timber in the first place then a suitable flatenning/smoothing process after drying whether that include upgrading to a helical thicknesser, belt/drum sander, hand plane or even more cost effective options.

    Also open to simple tips like chamfering the ends to prevent ripping end chunks out

    Oh - I realise that E. Chlorostachs leaves are lethal when consumed however I believe one would have to chew and consume a significant potion of the chopping/serving board to become ill. Happy to receive advice on this also

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  3. #2
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    I would be putting them through a sander.

  4. #3
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    FW, there are a couple of rules to follow.

    1. Read the grain direction. Although interlocked means that some of the grain direction is reversed, find the direction in which most is not. Work with that.

    Grain direction is up hill, that is, if you are using a jointer, and the board lies flat on the surface, then the grain on the side of the board will angle down and away from the blade.

    Conversely, if using a thicknesser, the board is run through with the grain running up and way from the blades.

    2. One option is to sand the surfaces, such as using a thickness sander or a belt sander,

    3. My preference is a hand plane, such as a joiner plane (#7 type) with a SHARP blade and a closed up chipbreaker (chipbreaker 0.3-0.4mm behind the edge of the blade. The leading edge of the chipbreaker needs a polished secondary bevel of 50 degrees. The mouth needs to be open, not closed). An alternative, is a hand plane with a high (60-65 degree) cutting angle. The latter can be achieved either on a BD or BU plane.

    4. Any minor tearout can be sanded out, or taken out with a scraper.

    5. Jointer, Thicknesser or hand plane - keep the shavings fine. The finer the better.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Visit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on constructing handtools, handtool reviews, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.

  5. #4
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    I cant offer anything more on planning, considering Derek (a GOD) has advised....

    But, a few things on grain if you are new

    -- Don't pat the cat backwards
    -- To find the grain use a tissue. It won't catch when its running the right direction.


    On grain, it looks swirly. Use a handplane. Thicknessers will shred it and tear out hunks. I've used spiral thicknessers in the past on timbers like this and they just don't work... even though they are fantastic. Its a timber that needs cutting and sanding (or scraping, if that's your thing).


    I might say, though, that this timber as cutting board is pure evil! Use it for an art piece. Cut boards are beaten and abused. Any showy grain will be lost soon after use. It would be a waste...

    instead, send it to me

  6. #5
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    Helical heads make a huge difference, but you'll still probably need to take the last 0.5-1mm with a drum sander

  7. #6
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    Derek's option #3 works well and because I have photos, I'm going to post them and pretend I'm helping! If you're new to the whole hand plane thing and sharpening, a honing guide will be of great benefit. Sharpness is key to a good result.

    Left is a spotted gum board with some lovely tearout. This was run through a true helical head jointer at a very shallow cut. On the right is a bookmatched tas oak panel, there were chunks missing from these boards after going through the spiral head thicknesser with a shallow cut.

    spotted gum.jpg tearout.jpg

    The boards after hand planing, the tas oak has turps on it, no tearout:

    spotted gum planed.jpg closeup with turps.jpg

    No sanding or scraping, this is straight off the plane. This was using a Luban 5 1/2 with a freshly sharpened blade and a close set cap iron.

  8. #7
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    Thanks everyone for the quick replies - great stuff

    Thanks Rusty. Yes, I will finish those 50mm pieces with a sander unless I source a plane soon.

    Thanks for the practical tips Derek. Grain direction is something that I have not tried to read. Thanks for the sussinct bullet points regarding options
    WoodPixel - great analogy regarding grain direction and I will be trying out the tissue paper trick

    Thanks ElanJacobs, I think I am leaning toward getting a belt sander at the least to finish

    Thanks for the pics Alkahestic - those boards turned out great. Goes to show what a good plane can do

    I am leaning toward a hand planner and a belt or drum sander.

    WoodPixel - sorry to have offended the senses. I should provide some more information as not everyone may have read or recalled where I source the wood from in earlier posts.
    All of the timber comes from trees that have fallen by fire or storm. Most found months after what ever takes the tree so may be cracked. I dont mind the cracks - it provides some character and tells a story.

    I did get to some ironwood soon after a caravn park cut it down so will be using this timber for turning.
    The older, burnt, cracked timber will be used for serving boards and the like

    Heres a section that had a pipe go all the way through the trunk. It burnt all the way up like as chimney. This section was near the top before it forked out. The acrid smell of smoke did not dissipate at all until cleaned out and washed down. I only have a little Stihl miniboss which struggled through this dry section so I decided to drive a wedge for the last 1/3 for experiment sake. Needless to say I wont try that again.
    It sure didnt split easily like pine does


    It takes a bit of work (not much talent) but it is a way to use the heart wood



    A branch section that could be bookmatched with epoxy. Its cringe worthy for some but the epoxy decorative pieces allow people to appreciate timber that would otherwise be unused


    Some Miniata that has been cleaned out and cavities sealed


    The future process for such boards would be get the boards flat and smooth before using any epoxy

    Not an interlocked grain but the same idea: The below little board made from a ghost gum branch was cracked all the way through. It was going to be thrown away but I decided to see what can be done with it.
    SHMBO likes to use it for tea/coffee stuff



  9. #8
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    If its recovered wood

    I saw that grain and thought "wow".

    It would make a very nice something

  10. #9
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    Hey Fellas, we need to keep in mind the OP said Iron wood. Only one timber worse to plane and thats Lignum Vitae.

  11. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodPixel View Post
    If its recovered wood
    I saw that grain and thought "wow".
    It would make a very nice something
    What did you have in mind? If I have something of suitable size and quality I'm happy to post it to you just for the cost of postage.
    If you like the grain in the first 4 pics I can send you that piece - its 400 x 50 x 51mm and just under 1.4kg

    Proviso is that you post here how well you plane it and/or what you make from it
    I'll extend this offer to those who have helped and contributed to the thread already. Up to 1.5kg each of unburnt, crack free ironwood - enough to make a nice handle or two That should keep it under $20 for express postage

    Now I need to find a #7 in stock somewhere....
    I see toolmart/total tools and ebay have a Stanley #7 for under $400 but I have no idea what quality of cut it will bring
    I might have better luck in the market place?
    Open to suggestions

  12. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by rustynail View Post
    Hey Fellas, we need to keep in mind the OP said Iron wood. Only one timber worse to plane and thats Lignum Vitae.
    Hi Rusty - I have some E. Miniata too. Not quite as bad but still suffers tear out.
    Is any of the above suggestions not appropriate for ironwood?

  13. #12
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    I don't believe that I an writing this, but for once I am going to disagree with Derek and most other Forumites. For grain that complex and interwoven I think that it is a waste of time trying to read it. Realistically, you cannot plane in one direction for 100mms and then in the opposite direction for the next 100mms. It will be almost impossible to avoid tear out with the use of any blade.

    The two options that I would consider are:

    Best Option:

    Ask a local joinery to put your boards through their thickness sander. Their fee will save a lot of heart ache.


    DIY Option:

    Borrow or hire a floor sander and progressively go up through the grits - 40, 60, 100 grit - and then switch to a random orbital sander and again up through the grits - 100, 150, 200 grit. [Be aware, there is a learning curve with the use of a floor sander. Keep it moving.]

  14. #13
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    I'm inclined to agree with Graeme C., but if I was absolutely forced to hand finish it, I'd be using a scraper or maybe one of Terry Gordons high-angle planes. My choice would be a thickness sander, taking very thin increments off, and then a ROS.
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  15. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallen Woodwork View Post
    Hi Rusty - I have some E. Miniata too. Not quite as bad but still suffers tear out.
    Is any of the above suggestions not appropriate for ironwood?
    You will have, IMHO, half a chance with Wooly Butt but no hope with Iron wood with hand tools. The secret to planning any of our hard timbers is a dead sharp blade with a low set chip breaker (as Derek has already mentioned.) Only problem with Iron wood it is so bloody hard it will dull your edge with one pass. Now add to that a grain going in all directions and you have a recipe for disaster. The way I approach hard cranky grain is to joint the underface first, to get a flat face, probably with tear out, but it is the flat face thats important. Now I can flip the the cranky mongrel and feed it through a drum sander as often as required and as finer grit as required. Knowing that the timber is traveling through the sander dead flat, one can expect a dimensionally stable piece of stick at the end of the process. If the underside needs to be tear out free, then that face can also be passed through the sander once the face side has been sanded to flat, and prior to final dimension sanding.

  16. #15
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    Well, I don't often disagree with rustynail, but I reckon it IS possible to plane ironwood to a good finish - I've done it often enough, but I will admit, only in fairly small pieces and it ain't a walk in the park. Using a very good blade like Veritas's PM-V11 helps - anything else & you'll need to resharpen every 2 minutes & even the toughest blades don't last long in that stuff. Ironwood is amongst the front-runners in a land of tough woods, but I'm not sure it's any worse than ringed gidgee or dead finish (Archidendrosis) although it has an additional little bit of nastiness in that it can gum up your plane sole and a finely-set iron tends to stop cutting 'til you clean the gunk off. The thought of hand-planing a square metre or so of this stuff to a fine finish doesn't thrill me a'tall!

    For someone not familiar with hand planes, it would be a very steep learning curve to start out with ironwood, you'd need to come to grips with very thorough sharpening & using a very fine setback on your cap-iron, both of which take a bit to fully master. IMO, it wouldn't be worth the effort unless you really want to become a dab-hand with planes. To plane any more than I'd need for an infill plane I'd be looking to use a thickness sander myself. Actually, I'm not sure I'd recommend it for cutting boards anyway; I think you should look into the advisability of using E. chlorostachys for cutting boards. It's probably fine for dry goods, but I wouldn't use one for cutting wet stuff like meat. It may be ok, I don't know what levels of toxins are in dry wood, but it's very high in leaves of young suckers, which are the cause of livestock poisonings - just a few leaves are enough to eliminate a sheep or goat, according to reasonably reliable reports. (I spent my working life in veterinary pathology, and I'm very familiar with ironwood's reputation as a livestock poison, but I have never come across any quantitative info on the levels of toxin in the wood - it certainly has some, but to what degree I don't know......)

    Just my 2c
    Cheers,
    IW

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