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29th January 2021, 12:45 PM #1Novice
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Dedicated jointers vs planer/thicknessers
Hi there,
My two main current stationary woodworking machines are a very basic early 80s Scheppach table saw and planer/thicknesser.
I've been thinking it could possibly be time to look at something a little more "a la mode".
I've been looking at machines on the Carbatec website. Apologies if this is an ignoramus question, but what's the difference between the planer on top of the planer/thicknesser, and the jointer? Do they both do the same thing? If so, is there any point in buying a dedicated jointer? It's general furniture-making I'm getting into.
planer-thicknessers.jpgCarbatec planer/thicknesser
jointers.jpgCarbatec jointer
Many thanks for your considerations... and also, any thoughts on the quality of the Carbatec machines?
- Josh
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29th January 2021 12:45 PM # ADSGoogle Adsense Advertisement
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29th January 2021, 01:10 PM #2
They both do the same thing. The benefit of the combination machine is that the Jointer table is the same width as the Thicknesser so usually wider than the standard Jointer. Having said that, it could also restrict the width of Thicknessing. The unit you pictured shows their 10" machine so the Jointer table is 10'' wide and the capacity of the Thicknesser is also 10" wide. The bed will probably be a bit shorter on the combination machine as compared to the equivalent width Jointer.
If I were in the market for either of these I would be looking at their units with the segmented head so I didn't have to worry about blade setting when sharpening or replacing.Dallas
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29th January 2021, 02:14 PM #3SENIOR MEMBER
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100% what Treecycle said - I'll add my 2c that I went with a separate jointer and thicknesser as I already had a thicknesser and I thought the long bed on the jointer would be useful, and it has been when jointing 2m+ long boards. Depending on the length of your workpieces this may not be a factor for you. Definitely, absolutely, totally get a helical head, better quality cut and changing the cutters or rotating them is a breeze.
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29th January 2021, 03:50 PM #4GOLD MEMBER
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It’s really just a space and money-saving thing. Two machines in one, so one footprint. Otherwise, they do exactly the same thing.
If you had several people working at the same time, separates might be better. If space is an issue, the combo might be.
Ive got the Hammer A3-31, which is possibly my favourite machine - it’s so accurate. There are times when I swear silently because it’s in planer config and I need to joint something (1st world problems) - it’s a minor inconvenience, but an inconvenience nevertheless. To switch it back to the jointer, I have to drop the planer tables right down, swing the jointer tables back down, and put the fence back on. Separates don’t need that kind of fiddling, but it’s a (very) small price to pay.
The Hammer has an assortment of (pricey) aluminium extension tables available so it can quickly be turned into a long bed jointer or planer - not sure if the carbatec flavours can do the same, but worth looking into.
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29th January 2021, 04:04 PM #5.
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Another difference is the planer thicknesser (PT) - I have one of these - has a lightweight Al fence, whereas the jointer (J) fence is cast iron.
I reckon the fences on both machines are on the short side especially for the longer bed J.
Over time the Al fence component on mine developed a vertical bow so I replaced the fence on my PT with a sturdier/wider and longer one made from 10mm thick Al plate.
It uses the same steel bracket/base. This could also be done with some thick MDF
Fence.jpg
Converting between thicknesser and jointer mode is a bit of a PITA and if I had shed room I would have a separate T and J.
You can also see above I replaced the somewhat "choked" standard 4" dust extraction hood with 6" one and it now works much better.
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29th January 2021, 04:08 PM #6SENIOR MEMBER
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re quality of Carbatec machines...
If you've never used one before you'll be hard pressed to notice any issues in quality.
The next step up from Carbatec stuff probably Laguna, which i feel is similar quality/performance to Carbatec, just the finish is that little bit nicer. Then if you're after top the of range go for Hammer/Felder machinery. You'll also be paying easy twice as much for similar spec machine performance wise.
There are pro's and cons to each way you go, as others have said its a space/money issue. I've opted for separate machinery, as i currently have the space, and was able to secure both used for less than the price of a combo machine. I never fancied the combo machines mostly because of the following:
- I have no need for a 10" jointer, but valued the fact that my 8" has longer beds
- I do have regular use for a thicknesser >10" so having a 15" thicknesser works for me.
- I don't like having to change functions.
- (Debateable) Dust extraction is important and feel a combo machine doesn't contain dust enough for my liking
- Separate machines mean longer service life as you separate the load/usage on the machine. Obviously if you're a weekend warrior this may never be an issue
Hope that helps.
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29th January 2021, 07:35 PM #7Senior Member
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All good answers. I've had both 'combinations' at different times. I have moved to separate machines because:
a). Space is not an issue.
b). Changing the configuration was, for me, a significant PITA, and I always wondered how 'repeatably accurate' the fences and tables were doing this - both functions need spot on alignment - it's why you're doing it, to get that right angle/perpendicular guarantee. I'd change the function, get my trusty engineer's square out, and curse. Not out by much, but enough to require re-setting.
I'd add - the cheaper 'lunch box' thicknessers can do a good job, but the cheaper jointers are a bit more hit and miss. A good jointer will be a big, heavy, cast iron machine - that's just the physics of it. The thicknesser is inherently better at its task with less weight because it's 'straddling' the work. Poorly explained, but if you want to get the best results, worry most about the jointer.
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29th January 2021, 09:02 PM #8
Josh
If you are looking to upgrade your 10" combo machine, my recommendation would be a 15" thicknesser with helix blades. The weakness in your combo is the width of the thicknesser. Keep the combo for the wide jointer. A wide, long jointer is very expensive as a stand alone. The combo may be short in the bed, but I do not see this as a limitation for most furniture parts. (I have a 12" combo, and the bed length has never been an issue - I simply cut the boards to length, and joint these. That ends up more economical thickness-wise as well).
Regards from Perth
DerekVisit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on constructing handtools, handtool reviews, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.
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30th January 2021, 01:44 AM #9
Like has been said with these planner / thicknesser machines, its mainly for those tight on space .
Also , they have always had the problem of not being able to extract dust without fluffing around and fitting hoods to the top while thicknessing . Probably fitting for the planing as well ? I'm not 100% sure on how or if the new ones solve that.
Ive mainly looked at older vintage 3 phase larger machines but I'm pretty sure the new one must be the same ?
It all adds up to more adjustments rather than being able to go easily from one machine to the next and then back to the first if you need to quickly .
The other thing I didn't notice mentioned is its pretty common in cabinet shops to have a planer smaller in width than a thicknesser. I started out with 6" planer and 12" thicknesser then upgraded years later to 12" planer and 20" thicknesser. The most common Planer used in industrial settings is 12" wide . These are normally used with a 24" thicknesser . Wider planers like 16" are seen and 30" Thicknessers too . Not as often. And there are rarer larger sizes. Usually used with that size difference is what I'm getting at.
When you know how to use the planner correctly for flat wide boards for table tops or top and sides of cabinets you can get a rough twisted side of a board flat by spinning it around to take a bite from both sides of a wide surface . So a 6" planner gets a 12" board flat enough to run it through a 12 " thicknesser and get its top side true . It then gets flipped to skim the first side perfect .
The wider your thicknesser the better but you need a planer at least half its width .
I'm going larger with a 16" Planner and 24" thicknesser atm and that will be good but I still think back to the days of using the 6" and 12" machines and what I got done on them was pretty decent . Anything I would want to build today could still be made on both sizes of machines . Its just that the large machines would save many hours of extra time doing it for the larger work, per job .
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30th January 2021, 07:08 AM #10GOLD MEMBER
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I have an earlier Carbatec combo and as i got busier i found it a real pain to go from thicknessing to jointing mode, many times per day, so now it is a dedicated jointer and i bought a bench top thicknesser.
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30th January 2021, 08:12 AM #11Novice
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Thanks everyone. All very helpful comments, and much appreciated.
The advice on helical heads is especially relevant. My initial research about them informs me that as they become dulled, you rotate each individual square cutter to expose a fresh edge, meaning you've got 3 rotations before the cutters are all dulled.
I understand that it can take quite some time before all the edges of the cutters are dulled, but what happens then? Do you remove all the cutters and take them somewhere for resharpening? I imagine that could be quite a mission, and not cheap?
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30th January 2021, 08:13 AM #12SENIOR MEMBER
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ditto to these comments went the same way no space issues I now have a old combo and a bench top thicknesser .
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30th January 2021, 08:23 AM #13
The individual cutters can be sharpened. It is the flat surface that is sharpened not the bevelled edge, which actually makes the operation easier and would be performed by the owner. I don't think there would be the economy in taking them to be professionally sharpened. The limitation of how many times they can be sharpened would be until the retaining screw is no longer in the countersunk recess. However, I think most people buy new cutters. I am not sure of the cost.
Regards
PaulBushmiller;
"Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"
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30th January 2021, 08:29 AM #14Woodworking mechanic
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SJE sells replacement cutters. Vast the site to get an idea of the cost of replacement cutters. This is a top notch supplier.
SJE-Tool
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30th January 2021, 08:53 AM #15
The other thing to look for is that not all brands of machinery manufacturers use 4 sided cutters. Quite a few only use 2 sided and some are only HSS which won't last as long as carbide.
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