Thread: DIY Furniture: Dowelmax or Festool Domino?

Yeah, I've heard dowels are good for that

I was just explaining this thread to my daughter.

She reckons the dominos showed earlier are no good:

* They're not painted black
* They don't have coloured dots

Originally Posted by silentC

You've had all day and that's the best you can come up with? Disappointing...

Mate, if you want to use polyurethane glues then go for your life. I'm over joyed for you. You will have the strongest furniture this side of the black stump. Oh that's right, you're on the other side of the black stump, aren't you? But, again, I ask you, if the glue is strong enough to join end grain to long grain, why do you need dowels? Why don't you just slap on some glue and clamp it together? Can't get quicker than that and if what you say is true, it should be just as strong. The dowels are superfluous if you believe your glue hyperbole.

So how long have you been using polyurethane glue with your furniture? Have you found any problems with handling it? And how are you going with sourcing your compressed dowels?

Why are you disappointed in this new information? Were you already aware of this research from 2006? Are you not interested in suspending your tit-for-tat point scoring for just a second to consider the implications of this? Have you changed your attitude to the meeting of grains and the so-called superiority of long grain to long grain faces? Why are you carping about glue now? Maybe you should buy some and try it, such as:

http://www.excelglue.com/one.htm

Notice that the research paper also mentions other glues that are unobservant of your "end grain joins are weak" folklore. Have you tried any of these glues, or are you still using traditional aliphatic glues, and if so, why?

You ask why use dowels at all if the glues are so strong. I think that's a stupid question, frankly. The dowels give extra mechanical support. They align pieces perfectly. They provide an inter-penetrative connection between timber members. They provide a backup if the joint fails so that "asses do not hit floors" (as another poster put it). Did you really need me to list these reasons for you? I'm disappointed...

Polyurethane glues are not that difficult to use once you get accustomed to them. I use Mineral Oil to stop it sticking to my hands. It's not expensive or difficult to handle, unlike the older 2-part PU glues.

I'm buying expandable dowels from Rockler. They are cheap, to me (4c each, a bit more with shipping). I don't envisage using a lot of them because I don't have much time for this hobby.

I'm well aware of the fact that there are superior glues to the ones typically used in woodworking. Parts of my house are held together with them. I choose not to use them because a) I don't need to and b) they are more expensive and unpleasant to handle than what I use.

The joints I get with a good quality AR glue are plenty strong enough for any application in furniture making. This method (mortice and tenon etc) has been good enough for my ancestors and is good enough for me. I actually enjoy making things using more traditional methods, although I do admit to using a table saw and a router rather than a tenon saw and a chisel.

It seems to me the only reason one would need anything stronger is if you have an inferior joinery method that you wish to improve. Such as dowels. Properly made joints don't need space-age glues. I'm not yet using hide glue but I intend to start using it. You will see that as a major step backwards no doubt. I will enjoy it because it is the way furniture has been made for hundreds of years.

As you seem to be obsessed with proving the strength of your dowel joints, I'll allow you this much so that you can get some sleep tonight: it seems that on the face of it, a properly prepared multiple dowel joint using compressed dowels and a modern glue should be a dramatic improvement on the old method of making them. I can only base this on the claims of the jig maker but I have no reason to doubt it is a superior dowel joint.

Happy dowelling.

US-Oz, can i ask you a question.

What method of joinery have you been using to join timber up until now?

Originally Posted by silentC

I'm well aware of the fact that there are superior glues to the ones typically used in woodworking. Parts of my house are held together with them. I choose not to use them because a) I don't need to and b) they are more expensive and unpleasant to handle than what I use.

Not that much more expensive, but I'll grant they are less pleasant to use.

The joints I get with a good quality AR glue are plenty strong enough for any application in furniture making.

For all I know, the 3 different tests (only one by the manufacturer, the others by an individual and a magazine) that compared dowelmax to domino joints and found the dowelmax joints to be stronger actually used AR glues too. In fact, it's quite likely. If you added a PU glue into the equation, the likelihood is that the end-grain-rich dowel joint would have performed even better!

This method (mortice and tenon etc) has been good enough for my ancestors and is good enough for me.

Ah, a traditionalist! I'm sympathetic to traditionalism, but always ready to take notice of new developments and new technology.

I actually enjoy making things using more traditional methods, although I do admit to using a table saw and a router rather than a tenon saw and a chisel.

But once you start making compromises like this, where do you draw the line? In your case, the line seems to be currently drawn so that dowels (talk about traditional!) and doweling jigs are verboten.

It seems to me the only reason one would need anything stronger is if you have an inferior joinery method that you wish to improve. Such as dowels. Properly made joints don't need space-age glues.

Dowels are inferior with inferior glues, look at it that way. But once again, the tests showing that fresh multidowel joints are very strong even with aliphatic glues are testimony to the fact that you need to distinguish your father's dowel joints (usually 1 or 2 dowels made with a crappy $20 jig or freehanded) from the Dowelmax's precision multidowel joints. They are chalk and cheese.

Originally Posted by Lignum

US-Oz, can i ask you a question.

What method of joinery have you been using to join timber up until now?

My Kreg's pocket hole jig

Originally Posted by US-Oz

My Kreg's pocket hole jig

Is that all, No mortices or biscuits or anything, just pocket holes?

I used a Ryobi biscuit machine for a while, but wasn't that impressed with biscuits. Joins were not flat and even.

Oh and I routed a few M&T's, made a mess.

Originally Posted by US-Oz

I used a Ryobi biscuit machine for a while, but wasn't that impressed with biscuits. Joins were not flat and even.

Im not trying to give you a hard time, but just get a feel for how much experience you have with woodworking

Not as much as most of you, I'll bet, But that also makes me more open to new ideas.

the tests showing that fresh multidowel joints are very strong even with aliphatic glues

You are speculating on the type of glue they used. Is there any reference to the glue used in the details of the test? Maybe the traditional M&T, which was apparently made by an third party cabinet maker, was glued using AR and the jig manufacturer used some wonderstuff, who knows?

The other thing these tests don't address is durability over time. We wont know how long they will last for many years. Other existing techniques are well understood from this point of view. The silicone that held the tiles on the Opera House was meant to last a lifetime. It barely lasted 20 years. At the time it was the most amazing product the construction world had ever seen. People are putting a lot of faith in 'modern glues'. I hope it turns out to be rewarded.

I'm sorry but dowels have never been a traditional joinery method in the sense in which I mean it. They are used because they are cheap and fast. You wont find many antiques held together with dowels. I admit to being ignorant to the fact that dowelling technology has come ahead, so I should thank you for that, but then I'm not likely to ever use them all the same. Call me a dowel snob if you like. I'll never use a biscuit either, nor a Domino for that matter (couldn't afford to buy one)

Originally Posted by US-Oz

Not as much as most of you, I'll bet, But that also makes me more open to new ideas.

New Ideas

So let me get this right. You are a novice woodworking DIY`er

You start a thread on one of the worlds largest woodworking forums, asking for advice because you are undecided on wether to buy a Dowelmax or Domino, but you had already made your mind up.

From post number 9 in response to Harry72 (who is a very good and experienced woodworker) you have started the anti-Domino/M&T responses with your first

Originally Posted by US-Oz

Notice that the research paper also mentions.... Blah, bla, bla.

It quickly became obvious you have no interest or intention in a Domino, and already have a decent backup of various reviews and scientifically tested studies (some dodgy) that show the Dowelmax and Dowels are superior to all other methods.

So my question to u US-oz is, why are you so quick to put down and dismiss the wealth of knowledge and experience on this forum? and why continually refer to “other” experts and tests.

Dont you get it?

The people you are arguing with here, have years and years of real world experience, from the Darksiders, serious amatures and those who do it for a living. We know by experience how Dowels and M&T`s work. We dont need a nameless test. We have been their and done that.

Why bother contradicting the advice that these forum members are offering. If you done like whats offered here, then mabye SMC might a better place for you to hang out

Originally Posted by silentC

You are speculating on the type of glue they used. Is there any reference to the glue used in the details of the test? Maybe the traditional M&T, which was apparently made by an third party cabinet maker, was glued using AR and the jig manufacturer used some wonderstuff, who knows?

No, that didn't happen, and here's why: we are talking about 3 separate sets of tests here, and they all came to the same conclusions (roughly). I wonder if you took the time to look at them:

1. The test by Dowelmax
2. The Test by a poster at another woodwork forum -forum.canadianwoodworking.com/showthread.php?t=18692
3. the test by WOOD magazine -sawmillcreek.org/showpost.php?p=804927&postcount=22;

(May I ask the moderators here to please stop disabling the links to other sites when I post them? Thanks)

The other thing these tests don't address is durability over time. We wont know how long they will last for many years.

People said exactly the same thing about acrylic paints when they were invented. Deja vu.