Thread: DIY Furniture: Dowelmax or Festool Domino?

Originally Posted by Ron Dunn

US-Oz, let your exuberance settle a little, use the tool on a couple of projects, and you'll have a much better basis for discussion.

Guilty as charged, Ron.

You are the expert with the Dowelmax here. You are right that compressed dowels are not a requirement and that 5 mins is a very generous time allowance for a Dowelmax joint (I used it because the Dowelmax site quote it, and they made it generous no doubt to cater for the glacially slow amongst us).

I think people are going crazy in their search for "evidence".

Well, perhaps. However people make claims and I think it's important to see them for what they are

But let's not forget what this is all about. It's a debate about our favourite joinery method and the audacity that some people have in suggesting theirs is superior to mine!

Originally Posted by Ron Dunn

Groggy, the only problem I see with your reasoning is the time per joint quoted by Dowelmax. I've got no idea how it takes five minutes to make a joint ...

Hi Ron, appreciate your points about the 5 minutes. I wondered about that too, but eventually went with what Dowelmax said.

For what it is worth, it only takes 3 seconds to drill a domino hole, so under ten seconds per joint would be closer. However, I allowed for setting up the tool, marking out and cutting; as I assume Dowelmax did also. I'd offer to do the comparison with you but my next few weekends are tied up working with another project.

I reckon an experienced user like Lignum or LGS would make joints much faster, but 30 secs allows for the slowest users.

Originally Posted by silentC

Well, perhaps. However people make claims and I think it's important to see them for what they are

But let's not forget what this is all about. It's a debate about our favourite joinery method and the audacity that some people have in suggesting theirs is superior to mine!

ROFLOL

Groggys point about construction time for amateurs is spot on. I work full time and my time in the shed is precious and way to limited for my liking.

The other factor in all this for amateurs like myself (and I'm certainly not in Groggy's league yet) are the value of tools that can compensate "to a degree" my lack of physical skills, knowledge and experience. I place a fair bit of value in essentially "buying" the skill through a well designed/accurate tool/jig. I just don't have the time to invest or am able to have access to a master craftsman to build the skills to a level where I don't need these type of tools. If I can buy something like a Domino and skip a large learning curve then I can justify the expense to myself.

I know the above statement would probably make those who have spent a lifetime honing their skills turn over in their grave but once again, I don't have the time at the moment to devote to learning and practicing those purist woodworking skills. So..once again, being time poor but with a reasonable income, I look to buy the ability.

I'm also a believer that I, nor anyone else should feel the need to justify the expense of their tools. I'm certainly not into woodworking to save money or make money. It is just a money pit for me but one that I get immense enjoyment from. I get even more enjoyment when I've been able to construct an item to a very good quality.

AS to whether a Dowelmax or Domino, not sure as I haven't used either. Both sound like fantastic tools for the purposes they are designed for.

Personally, down the track I'll be considering a Domino. Not #1 on my priority list at the moment. Once I can either get stock perfectly square and flat on my own or via a shop, I'll then seriously look at the Domino as a joinery tool.

Originally Posted by US-Oz

Good point, Different. I had a table saw in the US but nearly killed myself with it (piece of wood about a foot long shot out into my chest like a bullet, nearly stopped my heart, left a gigantic bruise and even today there are funny lumps called granulomas on my ribs where it hit me). So I am not too keen to buy another one. Instead, I bought one of these from EurekaZone.com for my Dewalt circular saw (it arrives today I think ) -

It is a hard lesson to learn and I guess you got it harder than most but a table saw kicking back should not be a surprise. Itis like a dog biting or a horse kicking there are lots of signs well before it happens and if you ignore them you end up with granulomas or in the case of a horse a quick trip to the bone yard.

I had one such tablesaw lesson many years ago learned the signs and how to avoid getting bitten and have not had one since so my suggestion is jump back on the horse and learn from your mistakes.

Ross

Originally Posted by silentC

Here you go. I did a little search myself and found this in the first page of results:

http://books.google.com/books?id=GGG...sult#PPA162,M1

If you look, you can find references to support any claim you want to make.

I contend that the evidence is out there in all the creaking, groaning dowelled furniture. All you have is a test conducted by an amateur and a test conducted by a manufacturer of dowelling jigs.

Well said all these tests are a load of old bollocks the only test that counts is the real world test of repairing furniture and seeing which joints fail and why. Most M&T joints fail because of poor joint fitment or joint size being compromised by some design element or the tenon dimensions were not correct or a single tenon was used where a multiple should have been used.

The only joint I have never seen fail is a though wedged or through pinned M&T. I am sure they have failed but I have never seen it.

Rgds

Ross

Originally Posted by US-Oz

Not hell bent, but I've bought the tool now, so I'll be using them for sure.

I think it is fair to say, given modern glues and a comparison of the multiple-dowel joint (MDJ) to a M&T joint, that the MDJ is at least as strong as the M&T, if not stronger.

Rubbish!!!!

Ross

Originally Posted by Different

Rubbish!!!!

Ross

Why "Rubbish", Ross? Did you even bother to view the stress test videos at Dowelmax or read the thread at the Canadian forum?

Originally Posted by US-Oz

SilentC, you are looking in a 30yr old book edited by a guy who got his degree in ~1945. This pre-dates a lot of what we are talking about. In that book and in those times, a Dowelmax joint did not exist, and instead 2 dowels joints were usual (any more and you ran the serious risk of a line-up mismatch, now obviated by the Dowelmax). Here's how they saw joints back then (from a same vintage book):

Rubbish
for joints the "rule of thumb" with dowels is 1 for every inch of sawn dimension (with a minimum of 2 where possible to prevent twisting)
the dowel diameter should be 1/2 the thickness of the piece

the example you've shown corresponds to what looks like a 2 x 1 so would get 2, ½in dowels
(that's 50 x 1 sawn, which would be about 43 x 21 dressed, and 12mm dowels for you youngsters).
if it'd been a 3 x 1 it would get 3 dowels

there's a number of points I'd like to make
1) The dowelmax does not make a dowel joint

2) the Dowelmax is not a conventional doweller. The joint tested in your link has what looks like 2 "too many" dowels compared to conventional practice.

3) There's nothing wrong with that per se, but it does mean the tester was really comparing two types of loose tenon joint — one with round tenons, the other with Domino biscuits

4) Looking at the Domino joint, the tenons seem too close together, I would expect that to significantly compromise the joint strength

5) the test rig used seems to apply more shear than bending to the joint. "Real world" joints usually have much longer lever arms — in a chair the stress is maximum when the user leans back taking the front legs off the floor — and are loaded in more than one plane



ian

ian, was that taught to you at some stage? Was it something you read?

I'm a bit of a dowelling nut, and I'm always interested in finding more about the history and practice of its use.

Almost forgot. The Domino excels at Breadboard ends like no other tool/machine on the market. Its brilliant.

Originally Posted by ian

The dowelmax does not make a dowel joint

Absolute rubbish.

the Dowelmax is not a conventional doweller. The joint tested in your link has what looks like 2 "too many" dowels compared to conventional practice.

Too many according to you, genius?

There's nothing wrong with that per see, but it does mean the tester was really comparing two types of loose tenon joint — one with round tennons, the other with Domino biscuits

What on earth are you blethering on about? BTW, it's "per se" and "tenon".

the test rig used seems to apply more shear than bending to the joint. "Real world" joints usually have much longer lever arms — in a chair the stress is maximum when the user leans back taking the front legs off the floor — and are loaded in more than one plane

Yeah, yeah, Einstein, all those points were well discussed on the other site's thread. Seems you can read and parrot ideas.


Sheesh, you have a lot of 'em here, eh?

Originally Posted by Ron Dunn

ian, was that taught to you at some stage? Was it something you read?

I'm a bit of a dowelling nut, and I'm always interested in finding more about the history and practice of its use.

Ron

it's what's currently being taught at Lidcombe TAFE

the other "rule of thumb" is you rarely need more than 3 dowels per joint


to add to your dowelling knowledge, you may like to track down some info on the Mafell Duo Doweller

it drills pairs of holes for 6, 8 and 10 mm dowels
from memory the holes are at a fixed spacing of 32mm

I've never seen one in the flesh, don't know if it's available in Oz (cost in UK is 366GBP + VAT) and don't want to come across as endorsing the tool.





ian