Thread: DIY Furniture: Dowelmax or Festool Domino?

I don't own either of these tools either and have no intention of buying one. I don't see the need when it's easy enough to cut a mortice and tenon or whatever with traditional means.

However, for me if you put aside the question of money etc., it boils down to whether you want to use dowels or floating tenons in your joinery. Since I have a distinct dislike of dowels, that decision is easy for me. However, I think you will find it hard to prove that a dowel joint, even with four of them, is as strong as a floating tenon.

The other problem with dowels is that they tend to shrink over time as they dry out, so they go from round to oval. This is OK in a situation where there is no chance of movement in the joint, but in a chair for example, the constant movement over time can cause the joint to work loose. Because the hole is round, the gluing surface of a dowel when used in long grain contains a large amount of end grain, which is not the best gluing surface. A floating tenon has mostly long grain to long grain, which is what you want.

Comparing a floating tenon system to a dowelling system is not really comparing apples to apples. You need to decide which method you prefer, and then choose the tool. If you want dowels, there's no point buying a Domino. If you want floating tenons, there's no point buying a Dowelmax.

silentC, is Hoadley the source of your dowel shrinkage thoughts? Keep in mind that his original article was about dowel-tenon (name?) joints in turned chair legs and rails. To the best of my knowledge there is no first-source evidence of dowel shrinkage in case-work furniture.

I have dowelled furniture of my own which is around 20 years old. I recently dis-assembled a horrible bookcase, and had to use a hammer to do it.

My father made some dowelled bookcases around 50 years ago. They have moved house six times, and are still as strong (and ugly) as the day they were built.

As I mentioned earlier, the only place where I have concerns about the use of a dowelled joint is in something like a chair rail-to-leg, where the joint is under continued stress if someone rocks back and forth on the leg. Even here, though, I suspect that modern glues would compensate, but I'm not about to try it.

Have you seen any other evidence of dowel failure?

Well, yes as a matter of fact I have seen cabinets using dowels come apart. Chairs certainly. But also bookcases and table leg to apron joints.

It is a fact that dowels contract into an oval shape as they dry out. This is because they are made from wood and we all know that wood shrinks away from the heart wood. So it is natural that a dowel, which is round, will not shrink in a uniform way.

Obviously not all dowelled furniture is bound to fail. There are other factors. No-one is saying that dowels are useless because the evidence is out there.

What I'm suggesting, is that my preference is for floating tenons, because I don't like dowels. This is the personal opinion part of the post. But my main point is that you must decide which you prefer before talking about which tool to buy, because it is not a level comparison. You're not just making a choice of tool, you're making a choice of joinery method.

And I hate dowels

silentC, I think it would be an interesting subject for some scientific study. Factors like diameter and length of dowel, number and placement of dowels, glues, etc. would make good parameters. Perhaps I'll fund it when I make my first $10 million *grin*

I think your fourth paragraph - choose joining method then tool - is 100% correct. There are a lot more factors than shape of hole and tenon to guide tool purchases.

Yes it would be interesting but I think you'd need a time machine to do it properly

Originally Posted by Different

I often wade in when I see a newbie asking for advice on his list of must have tools when he is set to spend a heap of money on a Domino but is cheaping out on the really important machines like a Table or Band Saw [snip]

Good point, Different. I had a table saw in the US but nearly killed myself with it (piece of wood about a foot long shot out into my chest like a bullet, nearly stopped my heart, left a gigantic bruise and even today there are funny lumps called granulomas on my ribs where it hit me). So I am not too keen to buy another one. Instead, I bought one of these from EurekaZone.com for my Dewalt circular saw (it arrives today I think ) -

Originally Posted by LGS

Coulda saved even more money US-Oz. Looks like you wuz ripped off!

.bt3central.com/showthread.php?t=36107

Nah, LGS, that's a crappy homemade item. The guy used mild steel spacers glued in with superglue as bushings .. LOL! I give it a few months before he has major problems.

Originally Posted by silentC

However, I think you will find it hard to prove that a dowel joint, even with four of them, is as strong as a floating tenon.

I do believe the Dowelmax people do exactly that on their testing page:

http://www.dowelmax.com/jointstrength.html

Hang on, aren't you the bloke who derided people for believing the Domino marketing hype a few pages ago?

Yes, I'm sure we can count on the manufacturer of the product to give a fair and unbiased assessment!

After talking to the family who make this item, I am pretty sure they are not scam artists. Give them a call yourself and make your own judgement.

It's not a matter of them being scam artists. However, I don't think it's unreasonable to prefer to see an objective trial made by an unbiased party before putting any stock in the results.

I've seen plenty of these trials conducted by different woodworking magazines and others over the years. I have yet to see one put dowels before floating tenons or mortice and tenon in terms of strength. In fact, dowels usually rate second last, with biscuits last and floating tenon/mortice and tenon alternating in first and second. I simply do not believe that four standard dowels are as strong and durable as a mortice and tenon. The only way this can be is if the dowel itself is significantly stronger than the wood of the frame.

Can you find me a single piece of furniture in which the tenon has snapped? I can find you many in which the dowels have either snapped or worked loose. The evidence has been with us for more than a hundred years.

A lot of the bad press dowels get is because of the older glues that were used way back. Modern glues are so strong that a multiple dowel joint is incredibly strong and durable, as the Dowelmax tests show.

Who knows how the dowels were made back then too. I don't think the modern ones will shrink. Aren't they compressed?

Can I find furniture where the tenon snapped? Yes, look further up in this thread where I link to a thread in which 2 Domino tenons snapped on the same piece of furniture.

The issue of dowels is discussed here:
sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=21882

Not talking about dominoes here. I'm talking about whether or not you have ever seen with your own eyes a frame or similar in which the tenon has snapped through normal use. Now I'm asking if you have ever seen a frame or similar in which a dowel has snapped or worked loose. Be honest.

As for the glues, oddly enough, none of the modern glues we have today have been tested for more than a couple of decades. So we'll have to wait until next century to find out if they're as good as the marketing hype would have us believe