Thread: Dovetail Saw

I have a couple of the Japanese types and they are ace. As far as I know they are not really re-sharpenable but they last for ages. In the big picture you don't really need them if you have, say a bandsaw and some really sharp chisels.

Hmmm, cava, I think you might have had more responses if you'd posted your question in the Hand Tools Unpowered section.

Saws can be very confusing when you start out, & for quite a while after! As you say, so many sizes, teeth per inch, blade lengths, etc. But I can give you a few simple suggestions. There is nothing mysterious about the range of sizes - people come in different sizes & strengths, so you choose a saw that feels right in your hand. For dovetail saws, most people like them around 225-250mm blade length - you need enough length to give you a comfortable stroke, & enough depth of blade to cut the deepest dovetails you plan to cut (the vast majority will be less than 25mm deep, but there are occasions when you want bigger ones).

As for tooth pitch, somewhere around 15 tpi or maybe a bit finer should suit most dovetailing applications. The rule of thumb is to have at least 5 or 6 teeth supported in the cut, so that they don't catch & bite too hard. A 15 tpi saw should manage stock as thin as 6mm, theoretically, but it depends on the wood & your skill as a sawyer, just how thin you can go. The ideal saw for you is one that cuts cleanly & follows a straight line without your having to concentrate so hard your brain fuses....

Originally Posted by artful bodger

I have a couple of the Japanese types and they are ace. As far as I know they are not really re-sharpenable but they last for ages.

Japanese style saws have their merits, and if you start with these & persevere until you can make them do what you want, that may be the right way to go, for you. I started life with western style 'push' saws, & I don't get on with the 'pull' saws at all, so I'm a biased advocate for western style saws. I am also morally opposed to the idea of chucking away saw blades because they are dull! True, the hardened teeth last a long time, but that means to me that you spend a lot longer cutting with a sub-optimum saw as the teeth slowly dull. Unfortunately, it's hard to find people who can sharpen saws competently, these days, so it's either hard-points or learn to sharpen saws yourself, which takes a bit of application, & not everyone has either the desire or time for it.

Originally Posted by artful bodger

... In the big picture you don't really need them if you have, say a bandsaw and some really sharp chisels.

Well you could get by with a bandsaw, & I've seen articles in magazines advocating them, but what a cumbersome way to cut dovetails! Cutting the tails would be ok, but then you are faced with tilting the table first one way, then the other, to cut the pins. Not only is that fiddly, but if you trace your pins off the pre-cut tails, as is pretty standard, you can't make the small adjustments that may be required to match small differences in the slope of the tails, unless you adjust the table for every cut! With a handsaw, it's child's play.

For some reason, dovetails have acquired a mystical status that isn't justified. They are really a very simple joint to make with hand tools, and with a little practice, you'll be able to turn out very convincing examples......

Cheers,

Hi Cava,
I purchased a Veritas dovetail saw from carba-tec a few months ago and I am very pleased with it. Like yourself I wanted to start to do some hand cut dovetails and couldn't be happier with it, it is 20tpi and cuts very well I have used it with Red cedar,Hoop pine and crows ash with great results.
Regards Rod.

Dooh. I didn't even think about the Hand Tools Unpowered section.

Thanks for the advice guys. It's a tough decision, and whilst normally I tend to spend way over the top for what I really need , this time I am trying to buy on price at the lower end of the spectrum.

The TPI and length questions have been answered, and I never realised about the push/pull aspects of use, or the resharpening factor. The veritas has, I assume, a regular pistol grip handle which maybe easier to control vs the Japanese type of handle. Or am I over-thinking this and it's just practice?

But what about blade thickness for a newbie? I see that the blades are available in 0.2 mm, 0.3 mm, 0.5 mm, 0.6 mm and 0.7 mm thickness. What would be a good all round thickness of blade to consider?

Hi again,
Yes Cava the Veritas has a pistol grip type handle.
Regards Rod.

Originally Posted by cava

......But what about blade thickness for a newbie? I see that the blades are available in 0.2 mm, 0.3 mm, 0.5 mm, 0.6 mm and 0.7 mm thickness. What would be a good all round thickness of blade to consider?

Are you sure about the .2mm? That's awfully thin! The thinnest I would recommend on a push saw (for saws in the sizes we are talking about) would be 0.4mm, which is approximately .015 inches, in old money. For someone who hasn't used saws a lot, I would recommend you start with a slightly thicker blade, say 0.5mm (which happens to be what the Veritas dovetail saw is).

'Ultra-thin' saw blades have become something of a fashion statement, lately. I'm a bit of a fan of thin saws, myself, but readily admit they have some cons along with their pros. One con is that they dull faster, another is that they are more easily damaged by unskilled or careless hands. There is a general conception that thin blades cut faster, because they have to remove less material to progress through the wood. That's a huge over-simplification, and in fact, you can move just as far with each stroke of a saw twice as thick, when both are cutting properly. A thicker saw will require a little more effort, but you would be flat out noticing it in most woods, in the range of thicknesses you are likely to encounter.

If budget is your main concern, & you want to just play about trying your hand at cutting a few dovetails to see what it's all about, you could consider a cheap hard-point backsaw from a hardware store. They are not very good for dovetailing, most are big & clumsy and you'll probably find them a bit hard to start, & the handles are set too high & at the wrong angles for me for dovetailing. But they will certainly cut wood!

If you are serious about this woodworking business and intend to make it a long-term hobby or vocation, the best alternative, in my view, is to buy a nice old saw and refurbish it, or at least have someone who knows what they are doing set & sharpen it for you. Depending where you live, there are regular old tool sales where you can talk to knowledgeable people, and pick up a decent user for a very reasonable amount.

The Veritas saws recommended by Rod are a very good saw & about the best bang for buck in new saws. They are not everyone's cup of tea with their 'futuristic' look (very popular with Star Trek fans, I believe ), but they certainly do the job & do it well. However, unless you intend making lots of small, thin-sided boxes, I would recommend the 14 tpi rather than the 20 tpi version. Once you learn to use a saw properly, you'll find that larger teeth cut faster and are easier to control. Small teeth clog with sawdust in a wide cut, preventing efficient cutting and can make it more difficult to cut straight. Small teeth are also a major PITA to sharpen, for semi-blind old coots like me....

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

Are you sure about the .2mm? That's awfully thin!

Thanks for your advice Ian. It looks as if 0.5 mm is the way to go at the moment.

0.2 mm is thin, a bit like an icing spatula in baking, but Carbatec have them in the Japanese saws.
http://www.carbatec.com.au/dozuki-21...sion-saw_c5800

Cava by all means learn to cut dovetails by hand. When you've had enough, this is one of the best tutorials I've seen on getting the job done and having small, beautiful pins. REAL woodworking nous.

http://lumberjocks.com/SPalm/blog/40036

Originally Posted by cava

It's a tough decision, and whilst normally I tend to spend way over the top for what I really need , this time I am trying to buy on price at the lower end of the spectrum.

If you want to teach yourself to cut accurate joints it's worth spending money on a good quality saw. It's not a thing I'd skimp on because it is very hard to cut accurately unless the saw is properly set and sharpened - which a cheap one won't be.

I wasted a lot of time with a cheap saw because I thought they all looked pretty much the same, so why waste money, but then I bought a good one and realized the difference.

It may be different with Japanese saws, but I was brought up with the Western style and can't make a straight cut with a pull saw.

Originally Posted by cava

Thanks for your advice Ian. It looks as if 0.5 mm is the way to go at the moment.

0.2 mm is thin, a bit like an icing spatula in baking, but Carbatec have them in the Japanese saws.
http://www.carbatec.com.au/dozuki-21...sion-saw_c5800

OK, I believe you. That is one thin saw!

Whatever floats your boat, I say. That saw has no appeal to me at all, for several reasons, but that's not to say it isn't a perfectly wonderful saw for those who get on with such saws...

I do agree with Bill that one shouldn't skimp on any tool, though we all do. I've had 55 years plus of wielding saws & I could probably cut a tolerable dovetail with just about anything that will slice wood, but to do it really well & without ridiculous effort, I want my luverly little dovetail saw specially made & sharpened for the job. It almost does 'em by itself...

Cheers,

Well I bit the bullet and am now a proud owner of a Veritas dovetail saw 14 tpi.

Whilst I haven't used it yet, as a beginner, I feel comfortable with the pistol grip handle vs the round handle of the Japanese/Gents saws. It should be interesting, to see what I can actually do with it.

I think you've made a good choice, cava. You have a saw you know should cut straight & true, so now it's just a matter of getting some scrap wood & practising your technique. If you haven't used a sharp, fast-cutting saw like this before, note that it should cut like a knife with very little pressure. Just apply enough downward force to keep the teeth nicely in contact with the wood - a little experimentation should soon show you what's needed. Most people starting out 'lean' on their saws too much, causing them to bite & catch and making it very difficult to saw clean & straight. When a saw stops cutting under a tad more than its own weight, it's time to get it sharpened...

Cheers,

Hi Cava,
My 20 tpi Veritas has only had a few outings so far and I am very pleased with it. If I had asked this question here I to would have possibly bought the 14 tpi as I understand what IanW said about the finer tooth in thicker timber for dovetails,but most of my work is in thinner section and this saw cuts so easily it is a real pleasure to use for what I want as I am sure yours will be. Please let us Know what you think once you get to use it.
Regards Rod.

Japanese pull saws are good as dovetail saws, but I now prefer a push saw. The things to look for are: brass back - let the weight of the brass do the work; thin kerf - mine (shop made from spring steel) has a 0.4mm kerf; finest teeth you can find.
Either will do a good job once you're used to it.