Thread: To dovetail saw or not to dovetail saw...

Well you'll probably get a few opinions on this one.

Here's mine:

There's a reason that they are called Tennon and Dovetail saws.

Tennon saws for cutrting tennons, Dovetail saws for curtting d/t's

You need both IMO.

If you can only get one, ask yourself which joints you are going to cut the most of and get that one.

Hi Shannon,

Basically the dovetail and tenon saws are the same - they are both filed for ripping operations. The tenon saw is larger, heavier and has a 'higher' blade than the dovetail saw. I suppose as to which you need depends on whether you are more likely to cut tenons or dovetails.

There are also the 'stright' or 'gentlemans' style of dovetail saws which are also very good, but with an even smaller height.

Whichever way you go - buy one quality saw and you won't regret it. Personally I would go for an open handled dovetail saw like the ones from Lie Nielsen; but then that's just my preference.

Also have you considered Japanese saws??? And that's a whole other argument

See ya,
Chris

Think Craig beat me to it by about 1 sec . Oh well....

See ya,

Chris

Originally Posted by cdm

Hi Shannon,

Basically the dovetail and tenon saws are the same - they are both filed for ripping operations.
Chris

Umm, not necessarily - in fact there was a time when the vast majority of both were filed as crosscut, and I'd bet dollars to doughnuts if you put your luverly LN dovetail (rip) saw in to be sharpened by the average saw service, it would come back as the half-@rs'd machine-cut semi-crosscut profile that sharpening machines do.
Sharpening D/T saws as rip makes a lot of sense, since you use it mostly in that mode, but it's useful to have a small crosscut, too. I always use two saws for dovetails and small tenons (on the rare occasions I do the latter by hand), one for the cross cuts, and one for the rip cuts. The small amount of time lost putting one down and picking up the other is more than compensated by the speed and quality of the cut. The reason for this is that an aggressive rip is difficult to start, especially for cross cuts. It's also likely to tear out badly. And if you're a beginner, this is likely to be even more of a problem.
So my subtext is, having a crosscut and rip is great for speed, but you can get away with say, a 15 point crosscut if you can only have one - how many dovetails and tenons do you plan to cut in a year??
There are quite a few small saws kicking around flea markets etc, and very few can't be made to work well. It's all in the sharpening, which isn't that hard to do. I've heard it said, and I agree to some extent, that even a mediocre hand-sharpened saw beats the machine sharpened version. Find a cheap saw, buy a file (good for maybe a dozen sharpenings) and fool about a bit til you get it right, and you'll never look back......
And when you do get to afford a couple of Lie-Nielsens or Adrias, you won't have to trust them to saw-sharpening services.
Cheers,

Hi Shannon

Ian has just about said it all. I will add that, in direct answer to your question, a dovetail saw is (1) generally smaller than a tenon saw (typically 9-10" verses 12-14"), (2) the dovetail saw is filed in a rip with more teeth than the tenon, which is filed crosscut (dt = 14-18 tpi, usually 15 tpi; tenon = 11 - 13 tpi).

Note that the above are Western saws. Japanese saws are filed differently. They are used differently (which I assume you already know).

Choose a Western saw for hardwood and a Japanese saw if you mainly use softwood.

If I were to choose just one saw, I'd go for a dedicated dovetail, Western style, about 10" long blade filed 15 tpi rip. In a few studies I have read (and one I participated in), the rip cut smoother and faster than the crosscut. Also note that you can use a tenon saw for dovetails. If you had a 12" Disston #4, for example, with 13 or 14 tpi rip, you could do it all. But you know about compromises. Personally, I cut more dovetails that I hand cut tenons, so I'd choose the DT saw.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Thanks guys for getting back to me.

Your replies have promped another question however.

Although I will plan on trying my hand more often at dovetailing, I think that for the most part the saw would be used for little jobs where more accuracy than my normal panel saw is needed. Case in point - yesterday I needed to replace some skirting and beading for my entryway and dooorframe. Didn't want to be bothered lugging the Triton out of the garage for some simple cuts. However I only had my knockabout (read ALL purpose - pine, MDF, on occasions trees :eek: ) $20 jobbie from bunnies and I needed to be ultra careful to get my mitres just right.

If this is the main type of work I would be using the saw for is the dovetail still OK for this?

BTW Derek, was the review you participated in for AWR's last issue on dovetail saws? This was the review that has really prompted the question. I have long known that I needed a tenon or dovetail saw, but this review was a good kick start to the reality for me.

Shannon,
Derek has given the sort of dimensions you'd expect for D/T and tenon saws, so it's a question of what size material you want to cut. The sort of cuts you're talking about are usually done across the face of the board, because the chunk of metal stiffening the blade would obviously get in the way were you to use it like a panel saw. So you choose the saw that best suits what you'll be doing most of.
You would need to be very skilled with any saw to be able to fit up mouldings right off the saw. I prefer to cut to as close as possible and trim to fit with a block plane, (for mitres), especially as there are very few exact 90* corners in the average house! Tradional style skirting boards look better (and stay that way) with coped joints.

When all else fails, as an old chippie friend used to say, "It's a big hole a pound of putty won't fill"
Cheers,

Shannon

Again Ian has given great advice and all I feel I need to add is that you really would be best helped with a mitre saw (hand powered of course) - about $50 for the non-compound version from Carba-tec.

Regards from Perth

Derek

For years I used a tenon saw for cutting both tenons and dovetails in softwood but used my granfathers (a cabinet maker) old gents saw for finer work.
A few years ago I started using power tools as my abilities declined and now prefer a router and dovetail jig.
Perfect dovetails every time.
I now use a router for morticing and a table saw for tenons.
Both made much easier by using purpose purpose made jigs for both.
I've had my hand making joints for many years so now use the easier method of using power tools for everything.

I reckon both, but I bet everyone who see's wood as a good chance to spend time out from under SWMBO's feet has compromised in the past. Heck I got away with using a hacksaw for about a year before I was ready to doll out for fancy saws.

No, I wont admit it if you ever catch up with me for a beer or two but until you have the money saved (Dont buy the cheapest you can find...) hacksaw is the way to go.

Although I will plan on trying my hand more often at dovetailing, I think that for the most part the saw would be used for little jobs where more accuracy than my normal panel saw is needed. Case in point - yesterday I needed to replace some skirting and beading for my entryway and dooorframe. Didn't want to be bothered lugging the Triton out of the garage for some simple cuts. However I only had my knockabout (read ALL purpose - pine, MDF, on occasions trees :eek: ) $20 jobbie from bunnies and I needed to be ultra careful to get my mitres just right.

If this is the main type of work I would be using the saw for is the dovetail still OK for this?

For this sype of work you could consider using a hand-held mitre guide. I am thinking of the Sandvik 232 - you have probably seen them, made of aluminium with two orange knobs. The guide is held against the piece by hand. A panel saw or similar is held against the guide face with a clip spring. Very well designed and constructed, I have had one for years. It is about the only way I know of cutting mitres on deep pieces such as skirting boards without an angled power saw. The guide together with your panel saw is all the kit you need. My experience is it allows crisp cuts - no trimming required.

Regards