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Thread: Drawer design principles
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23rd October 2019, 03:54 PM #1GOLD MEMBER
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Drawer design principles
Hello, I am making a 10 drawer collectors chest each drawer 45mm high, 400mm wide and 250mm deep. they will run on timber runners screwed to the inside walls. There are no frames between the drawers
Some old drawers I have seen have the rear piece lower than the other 3 sides, moved forward towards the front by about an inch, and there is a 30 degree cut in the top of the two side pieces between the rear of the side pieces and the back piece.
I am wondering why this is so, and if I should be doing it.regards,
Dengy
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23rd October 2019 03:54 PM # ADSGoogle Adsense Advertisement
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23rd October 2019, 04:46 PM #2
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23rd October 2019, 04:48 PM #3a 30 degree cut in the top of the two side pieces between the rear of the side pieces and the back piece.
and ...
If this is what you are referring to, it is (a) ease the drawers into the recess, and (b) not make the drawers compress as much air when pushed in, as well-fitted drawers will cause others to be pushed out by air pressure.
The drawer bottoms for the first drawer are run in grooves in the drawer side. The drawer bottoms in the second drawer are run in slips.
Regards from Perth
DerekVisit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on constructing handtools, handtool reviews, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.
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23rd October 2019, 08:21 PM #4GOLD MEMBER
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Many thanks Derek and Alex. The things you learn on this Forum !! I have never made a chest of drawers before, so lots to learn.
Yes, another case of a picture being worth a 1,000 words, Derek. It is exactly like that, except the rear panel was moved towards the front too, leaving a gap behind the drawer.
I shall do the same and leave a 10mm gap between the back of the carcase and the back of the drawer, but I do really like the piston fit with another draw popping outregards,
Dengy
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23rd October 2019, 08:41 PM #5
Some drawers use a housed end panel rather than dovetailed end panel. With this style, the end is moved forward somewhat so that the end is trapped in the dado in the side and there is sufficient wood left in the side to avoid the side wood after the end breaking out and freeing the the end. This may be what you have seen in other drawers, particularly commercially produced stuff. Doesn't look as craftsman like as fully dovetailed, but all the end joinery can be done quickly with machinery and semiskilled labour, rather than needing to keep craftsmen creating dovetails all day to churn out production quotas. Also no real need to keep matching components together, as long as the back is machined to match the dado cutter (blade or router bit). The only way you would get that degree of interchangability with dovetails would be to route them with a fairly sophisticated router jig, but they would still look like routed DT's rather than hand cut ones.
I used to be an engineer, I'm not an engineer any more, but on the really good days I can remember when I was.
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23rd October 2019, 08:50 PM #6
As well as helping with the piston effect.
The Slope at the top of each drawer side at the back helps when a drawer is being taken in and out . You rest a drawer on its back sides just in from the cabinet front and lift it to horizontal for it to slide in . That a nice safe way taught to fit a drawer in its place.
The other reason is as a drawer is pulled in and out the weight in it after it passes the half way point wants to tip the drawer down . The bottom of the sides at the front half are pushing down and the top back of the sides are rubbing right at the back where that slope is . The slope is better than a sharp 90 degree end and is a spot to give a rub of candle wax as well as the drawer side bottoms .
And its a nice finishing look .
Bringing the back in an inch from the drawer side back ends is something seen sometime more on European construction more than traditional English or Australian furniture . It creates a need for an unusual dovetail in the drawer sides . The cuts for the pins to go through have to be started an inch + drawer back thickness away and so cross over each other . A triangle falls away as well at the very back . If you've seen drawer backs set in an inch forward from the back and they are dovetailed you would have seen this as well . Do you know what I mean ? Ill draw it if you like .
Depends on how its set out but you get something like this . Unless you just scribe and chisel them through then no there's no saw cuts.
IMG_2581.JPG
The reason Ive seen this done is when the ends of the drawer sides are being used to stop the drawer at the cabinet back . I think that's the only reason ? No fluffing around with setting drawer stops . Its a good strong way of stopping a drawer. The sort of drawer you can shut hard and not blow off the stops of the type that were fitted to the horizontal drawer dividers that your not having . If I understand your build as described.
The last thing you want in a drawer is a back that's fitted traditionally flush at the back and is also stopping on its back . drawer backs can shift or the thin back panels of the cabinet can shift and your drawer no longer goes right back in . Very hard and sometimes impossible to fix on antiques where this has been done .
My favorite way of stopping a drawer if I'm not going traditional is at its back on its sides, not by setting the drawer back forward an inch . I glue in stop blocks to the back and shave them down in the final fitting to get the drawer sitting right at its front . Its quick and easy when the top is still off the carcase and done right has never failed me .
Rob
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24th October 2019, 12:39 AM #7GOLD MEMBER
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Thanks Rob, I never realised there was so much to drawer making and fitting !!!
I had a bit of trouble understanding your last paragraph. Do you glue a block to the back, like shown on the photos Derek supplied above, and let that hit the back panel of the carcass?
In my case, I have a 6mm deep rabbet around the inside perimeter of the rear of the carcass, and dropped a 6mm thick plywood panel into it, which will be glued into position. I wonder if banging the rear of a drawer against this 400mm wide panel is recommended, or should the panel be screwed and glued into position.
I was intending to use the rails screwed to the sides of the carcass to position each drawer flush with the carcass at the front and act as stops. Is this a recommended practice?regards,
Dengy
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24th October 2019, 01:58 AM #8
If you want articles on drawer making, look on my website. Scan down this index. There are many: Furniture
Regards from Perth
DerekVisit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on constructing handtools, handtool reviews, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.
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24th October 2019, 12:12 PM #9
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24th October 2019, 12:23 PM #10
Derek’s drawer backs have the drawer bottom sticking out a little as normally is done , nothing else though , no blocks .
I was talking of gluing two blocks to the back of the cabinet in line so the drawer side ends hit them . I put them in a touch to thick and grain direction the same as what it’s being glued to . Then I shave them down till the drawer front stops just where I like it. These blocks look good when they just sit off the back of cabinet 10 mm . Not too thick is what I like anyway . Sometimes on more country style side tables I just put one block in the centre so the middle of drawer back hits it . It stops on that but has a little spring to it because if the flex of the drawer back .
These blocks are planed down before the top is put on the unit . Thats easy with a side table or cabinet where the drawers are in a horizontal line . If like you are having , a vertical line of drawers , getting in and shaving blocks down for each drawer could be hard .
Instead you could attach the blocks to the back of your drawer back out near each side end , and shave them down to get them sitting right ?
I wouldn’t be gluing in a back panel , even if it’s plywood . And stopping drawers on a 6 mm ply back should be given some thought as well . One of the first things that goes into working out a design of a cabinet apart from width and height is how the back works and is made. There is only three main traditional ways . It’s either just horizontal boards . Horizontal boards and battens with a ship lap or a panel and frame .
Yeah you could stop your drawers on the fronts of the side runners that are screwed in . You would have to be either shaving end grain off runners back to get a fit or be shaving Back the inside of drawer front which wouldn’t be good . Unless you glue in a block to shave back . I wouldn’t be doing it there .
With drawers, the fronts are always out of plumb at the front surface after the making and fitting so you end up with differences in thickness at the end after planing flush to carcass front. It’s not seen but you can measure or see it in how a front matches to the carcass . I suppose you could set your runners forward and have drawer fronts thick enough to just plane off the extra but with the sitting forward of runner and the twist I sometimes get in a front after making and fitting the drawer I’d imagine I may have to shave up to 3 to 4mm of a front to get it right at the end ?
Rob
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24th October 2019, 12:31 PM #11GOLD MEMBER
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Wow !!! Lot of useful information here, thanks for sharing Rob.
Still a bit confused with your stop block. Is it anything like the sketch I have attached, glued to the rear side wall?
Also, excuse my ignorance, but why not glue the plywood panel to the rear of the carcase?
Had a lot of trouble opening the drawing pdf file, so have posted an image file of the drawing. It shows a plan view section with two rear stop blocks
Chesto fo drawers.pdfChest of drawers.JPG
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24th October 2019, 02:38 PM #12
Yes that’s it . The drawer side stops on it . I’m normally putting them on the back and their normally in off the side . In one or three drawer tables / sideboard type things .
You have to be able to get to them with a plane or chisel .
In your situation I’d be leaving the side runners 19 mm short at the back and install a 19 x19 length or what ever size you like from top to bottom each side . Then set your drawer back in a little , say 5 or 10 mm and shave the side ends for the fit . Your shaving the thing out on the bench for the fit . Much better when access is bad .
Drawer bottoms and cabinet backs and panels in frames are just never glued in . It’s just not done . Unless there is some new tech idea to go along with it to prove why it’s been done . If that’s not obvious then it spells Learner straight off . It is ply though your using and It will work and it will help with the drawer stop blocks a little . You’ll be able to rub in the blocks with glue to back and side , so maybe that’s your good enough reason . If that back ever needs to come off for work because you have made such a nice cabinet , and someone in the future needs to fix it , their going to be talking about you as their chiseling off the back
One thing with your design . Your carcase sides will probably at some time within a year or two shrink in . That will leave your drawer front sticking out . So you will need that little extra at the ends of the side to adjust the fit . Unless you want to get in there to take the stops back , if it happens .
Rob
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24th October 2019, 05:08 PM #13My favorite way of stopping a drawer if I'm not going traditional is at its back on its sides, not by setting the drawer back forward an inch . I glue in stop blocks to the back and shave them down in the final fitting to get the drawer sitting right at its front . Its quick and easy when the top is still off the carcase and done right has never failed me .
Robwhy not glue the plywood panel to the rear of the carcase?
Dengue
In the recent Harlequin Table build I did something which I do not ordinarily do, but ran out of time to get the piece into a competition. I figured that I would rectify it later (which I have), and now all is well.
What did I do that I should not have? It is my usual strategy to place the drawer stops immediately behind the drawer front.
In these drawers, the drawer front extends over the drawer blade, which acts as a drawer stop ...
The Apothecary Chest had drawers that went in fully ...
... and the drawer stops were these (my design for an adjustable drawer stop) ...
However, as mentioned, the Harlequin Table had drawer stops at the rear ..
What happened was that - just two or three weeks later - the drawer fronts were no longer flush with the case at the front, and protruded over by a couple of mm. Expansion had taken place - not a mystery, since the table was positioned at windows with the WA sun beating through (although it was Winter). That would have speeded up the process.
Fortunately, the rear could be unscrewed ...
... and the offending rear drawer stops removed.
Use drawer stops at the front. Sorry Rob.
Regards from Perth
DerekVisit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on constructing handtools, handtool reviews, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.
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24th October 2019, 09:26 PM #14SENIOR MEMBER
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Derek may I ask which way the grain was running on the stops in the Harlequin table.I can see which way it's running on the other.
By the way I set mine at the front.
cheers....Roy
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24th October 2019, 09:28 PM #15
There is nothing wrong about stops at the back . Trained cabinetmakers have have been doing it for a long time . The grain direction of your cabinet caused drawers to move out by contraction of the carcass Derek not shrinkage . I have a 1790s Satinwwod English piece here with a pretty amazing drawer that slides out on Mahogany extensions set into its drawer sides flush . That antique version of a modern drawer slide. That drawer stops on blocks at its back . The blocks are scrrewed and glued to the drawer back as I was saying above . I didn’t say screws above .
I have a 1825-30 Australian Red Cedar piece in the workshop now with blocks at the back as stops . Never had front ones .
And there is plenty of examples of my own late made things around here with the same .
Your Harlequin table has grain running all the same direction around for the carcass Derek . It’s a bit Piano accordion in its possibilities for movement .
My Satinwood Antique has four tapered legs and side rails with grain in the normal table like direction . Not much in the way of moving in that .
Same goes for most of my own things . Same grain side direction and they don’t give a problem .
The Antique Red Cedar piece has same side grain direction to the carcass as Derek’s Harlequin table . That has suffered all sorts of movement . I don’t know how bad the drawers were because when I got it they had lost all signs of its original drawer and had been turned into doors with hinges added . I’ve just remade the drawers parts back onto the fronts .
I didnt see Dengue’s drawing till late in the discussion post 11. As I said, the side grain direction means you will get movement . Also any cupping can cause binding . Carcass construction for this is better with runners and guides and the runners fixed at the front and screwed or nailed at the back . With a front horizontal rail dovetailed in left and right . Just as you see on most chests . For good reason .
Nothing wrong though with stops at the back done right . And its an easy fix if you get the movement and have the room to fix it at the drawer backs . Stopping at the front though and that wont happen . Seems just a bit harder to fit up at the build stage though . Just leave the runners to long and shave the end grain back .
Rob
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