Thread: Dust Collection - It often don't make sense?

Originally Posted by Hermit

Emphysema - caused by smoke or dust.

Yep, and the list goes on ad infinitum..........

Originally Posted by Irvs

Wear a dust mask with a .3 micron rating.... Problem solved.

Seems a lot simpler to me to stop the dust at the point it enters your body then to try stop it from being in your general environment.

The fact of the matter is you can't stop the dust from being in the room you can only remove it quicker with more expensive dust collection so why bother spend thousands on a recirculating dust collector when you can get a lot of dust out with a cheaper option and wear a mask as well.

Masks are not as good as they might seem. The finest dust will hang around in a shed for hours or days so that means wearing masks continuously. Masks do not prevent dust settling on skin, hair and clothes. Unless you wear your mask continuously after making dust and then immediately take a shower and wash you clothes when you finish working, then the human body acts like a pump and a chimney. Moving around in dusty clothing creates a fog of fine dust around the body. Then, being warm the body heats the air around itself and the fine dust travels up around a persons head nose mouth.

There is no magic bullet with dust. Wearing a mask (I have the triton full face) when making very large volumes of dust makes sense. Air filters even small ones also help but the most effectively low cost solution is to put DCs outside sheds (but not near open doors and windows). I am surprised that people are willing to spend 10's of thousands on power and hand tools, and machinery but won't even spend a tenth of that on dust control

I think it only makes good sense to work in a dust free environment, and keep dust down to a minimum. That always made sense to me since the days I used to get home from Form 1 in high school with raging extreme hayfever after every woodwork class.

It would seem that as far 'dust-free' is achievable with the conventional equipment available and being sold daily, that is not all all possible where it apparently counts - sub-micron dust. I guess I associated "dust-free" with ensuring I'd never have a repeat of the dreaded woodwork class hayfever, and true it seems the equipment does that. It seems now that is not enough.

One of the early posts on this thread got me thinking through the figures in the manual for the generic Chinese room air filter unit I bought from Carbatec:
Filter Efficiency (@ 5 micron) 99.9%
Filter Efficiency (@ 1 micron) 85%
Inversely proportional relationship, it is sure that sub micron dust is let through in ever-increasing amounts as the dust gets smaller and smaller.

Those dust masks commonly available at the hardware store don't work, they are a joke. You would have to have a very flat wide nose for them to ever fit closely around your face. Instead they leave a gap either side of your nose and exhaust humid breath straight onto the lenses of your safety glasses or reading glasses so you can't see through the fog.

If you upgraded to a full face mask, how long do you wear that for? Sub-micron dust will remain suspended for hours, well after bigger-size dust has fallen down. The air filter and the DC are practically removing none of it.

So if it is true that sub-micron dust is really going to cause emphysema in recreational woodworkers - and emphysema is no laughing matter at all, that killed a parent of mine - if this is really the next asbestos scandal waiting to break news, then we have a problem.

The equipment being sold carries no disclaimer to say that it will not be effective in filtering sub-micron dust. Yet perhaps is being sold with the implication that it will filter dust sufficiently for health purposes. Or not. Carbatec and the other retailers may be open to class action for selling defective equipment under false pretences. Call in the lawyers, there's millions to be made in compensation payments if it can uphold in court.

If this dust is has asbestos-like dangers, just think - woodwork would also have to be banned in residential areas. Just exhausting it outside will simply endanger the neighbours. If you are doing it to protect yourself, therefore are aware of the dangers to health but are letting this stuff out to waft over the back fence, you are open to litigation.

The government will need to act on this issue now, it has to become a policy issue. It will be on the news nightly, as more and more cases are exposed and politicians run for cover. Think - if this stuff is asbestos-like in its dangers, that is the situation.

This is a big deal then. The evidence about the risk needs to be assembled, and a proper assessment of the risk needs to be conducted. The industry and the government will have to work together to regulate woodworking, as our activities could harm others.

So - choose your words carefully. What are the risks involved here?

I'll put my 2 bob's worth in as well. I have spent around $1800 so far on supposedly quality dust extractors / collectors, one with a high-end solid pleated filter, the other, an 'under bench' bag dust collection unit for my midi lathe. Even with all this dust collection going on, and very large fans pushing the air through the shed (my shed has rolla doors at both ends) I still had a nasty reaction from running Qld Red Cedar boards through my drum sander several weeks ago, of which I am still recovering from. About 6 hours after this sanding opperation, My eyes and nose started to burn and run, then the shocking asthma type of wheezing started. My sinuses were completely swollen shut for over a week, and the painful coughing and wheezing asthma in my lungs is still there somewhat after 3 weeks. I'm NOT an asthmatic nor am I allergic to anything at all. I always wear when sanding a 3M dust mask with P100 filters. My MAJOR mistake was removing the dust mask after the sanding process was finished. There must have been some VERY fine dust still hanging in the air, or on surfaces as I was cleaning up. This experience nearly put me in hospital guys. I won't use Red Cedar ever again. So much for relying on dust collection systems to keep you safe.

Originally Posted by Pariss

. . . . My MAJOR mistake was removing the dust mask after the sanding process was finished. There must have been some VERY fine dust still hanging in the air, or on surfaces as I was cleaning up. This experience nearly put me in hospital guys. I won't use Red Cedar ever again. So much for relying on dust collection systems to keep you safe.

I was speaking to an allergist about this very problem and he was the one who told me about the human body being a chimney. It's not just wearing the mask continually in the shed, your clothes, hair and skin will be covered in the stuff so you have to wear the mask until you take your clothes off and get into the shower. Yes you should wear the mask into the shower and wash the outside before you take it off. Also human skin is pretty porous and undoubtedly some of the allergens will get in through your skin.

Using fans and opening doors is not going to be anywhere near as as effective as venting DCs outside. That under lathe bench dust collector sounds like a fine dust generator and pleated filters should only be used when locating a DC outside is not possible.

I've just started pondering this issue after spending yesterday giving the workshop a very overdue clean and tidy. There was quite a bit of dust about, and stirring it all up made it quite unpleasant down there. I have no dust extraction at all.

The only real way of eliminating dust seems to be by using hand tools for everything, but that is a bit of a faff for tasks like thicknessing. Still, it is one way of reducing the size of the problem...

Originally Posted by NZStu

. . . The only real way of eliminating dust seems to be by using hand tools for everything, but that is a bit of a faff for tasks like thicknessing. Still, it is one way of reducing the size of the problem...

Nope that's not going to work either especially if you use sandpaper or if your tools every go blunt! If you don't use sandpaper and keep your tools razor sharp then you should be OK.

BTW even raw/naked wood decomposes just sitting there and makes fine particles. The more surface area is exposed the more dust is made - another good reason for sweeping up shavings.

Originally Posted by Gunnaduit

Anyhow, this DC issue does make me grumpy coz it is costing me money I now realise is wasted. It is disappointing that the equipment we are all spending big dollars on is not doing the job, that's now clear from the info in this thread, and that is just the fact of it.

Reading the dust extraction sub forum would have helped you avoid that wasted expense. All the statements made here have been trotted out in thread after thread and people choose to believe a salesman or their gut instinct before first hand experience from those who have pioneered DE in woodworking and suffered before they did, Bill Pentz being the predominant personality in this regard.

No one has to believe all this stuff of course and a lot don't. It is like any health issue that has long term effects, we do not see immediate issues as a rule so tend to denigrate the idea that effective DE is not necessary as do smokers who choose to smoke against all advice. Everyone makes their choices in this life and we live with the results and it is true that a very small minority do appear to get away with it but not many. My Grandfather smoked until his death in his 70's and he did not die from a smoke related disease so he dodged the bullet so to speak.

The equipment is available that will do the job so that is not an excuse or not in my book anyway. I was in exactly the same boat as most contributors to this thread about six years ago and decided that there had to be an answer so I asked some questions and read a lot of stuff on the net and arrived at a barely tolerable answer which was ditched quickly and the proper answer put in place. Things have moved along since those days and now the idea of GOOD dust extraction appears to be growing momentum but we are still getting fobbed off from equipment manufacturers who tell porkies to say the least. Never let a good story get in the way of the truth definitely applies in this case.

There has been great debate in other places on the net re all this stuff and is beginning to emerge that the answers so far while good could be improved or so it is said. The trouble with all the debate that comes forth every time is that it soon gets bogged down in technical detail which usually gives the average person a migraine and they give it all up as too hard. The KISS principle seems not to be heard when discussing dust extraction in these threads. BTW anyone who suggests that their is a simple answer is generally told that it is not possible.

As late as last year I read an article in the woodworking press re dust extractors and if it was to be believed the author may be blamed for subjecting woodworkers to unnecessary exposure to wood dust. I actually spoke to an editor of a magazine and he told me that he had never heard of Bill Pentz in relation to dust extraction. That is just not possible if anyone even does a cursory internet search on the subject.

If anyone who buys a dust extractor that has a bag attached to it and then puts that same DE in his working space thinks they have done something really useful for their health THEY ARE WRONG. If you buy one of these units and place it outside in such a way that the exhausted air cannot re-enter the building then they MIGHT have done themselves a favour, provided that is that the DE machine, ducting, hoods and saws etc have the ability to minimise the dust. Notice I said minimise as you will never get it all. The air filters that are commonly sold are a band aid at best as if they worked to remove the dust they would only be capturing the dust that has escaped during the machining operations.

I would say that as a rule if you gave the average woodworker a handful of money to equip his workshop he would buy everything except a good dust extractor which must tell us something about human nature, that is we are gamblers at heart as far as our health goes.

Originally Posted by Mini

I would say that as a rule if you gave the average woodworker a handful of money to equip his workshop he would buy everything except a good dust extractor which must tell us something about human nature, that is we are gamblers at heart as far as our health goes.

Unforunately true....

Originally Posted by Mini

. . . . I would say that as a rule if you gave the average woodworker a handful of money to equip his workshop he would buy everything except a good dust extractor which must tell us something about human nature, that is we are gamblers at heart as far as our health goes.

I agree. The same goes for just about any PPE especially those that impact on long term health effects. An example of this is ear protection. Unlike the 20+ fold difference between a $89 vacuum cleaner and a $2000 Cyclone the difference between ineffective and ineffective ear muff is only about a factor of five.

In a study of DIY accidents done in the 1990's,
- nly one in 10 people that own a power tool actually own any PPE.
- only 14% of people injured using grinders were wearing any PPE (including boots)!
- With Circular saws accidents only 24% were wearing any PPE but only 13% of people were wearing face protection
- chainsaws have the highest PPE use but it was still only 29%.
I think things may have improved since then but not much.

Bill's Cyclone Dust Collection Research - Medical Risks

Pretty much all there. If you want to use indoor filtration, I'd say . . . good luck.

Most cyclones installed in the US recycle the air back through filters. The dominant supplier of those filters is here...

http://www.wynnenv.com/cartridge_filters.htm

Note the efficiency rating at 0.5% of 99.5%. Not 100% but then the presumption would be that more escaped at the machining point than through the filter.

If operating in these conditions most also use an overhead filter to trap the escaped dust, I suppose it does something but am not sure what. I recommend that when using the larger of our cyclones a permanent 150mm vent is left open at all times in the duct to scrub the air, every little bit helps. BTW the filters on that link are what we supply if anyone needs them, most don't in Australia and vent straight to atmosphere.

99.5% is still pretty good. Two passes = 99.9975 which is more or less 100%.

I've just spent the last three hours moving through all the marerial thrown up when I searched Bill Pentz as mentioned by Mini. First I've ever heard of any it, shows my ignorance I suppose, but it is fascinating and all very informative and thought provoking.

But it does present a lot of challenges to do much about it. The BP cyclone isn't going to fit anywhere around me, at least as a 5HP 10ft high monster. If it were industrial and IP56 waterproof I might just get it outside but since it is an indoor design I can't see how to put it in my small space, the ceiling isn't high enough. If I ever relocate maybe I'll get a chance at installing one, it does seem like the best way to go, if you can possibly do it.

Meantime, looks like there is absolutely no point whatsoever in buying a conventional DC as personal protective gear, i.e. for your lungs' benefit. Totally misguided waste of money. Clearly they only work to keep the chips and coarse dust from collecting on the floor, that's all. So I wonder what to do, this has really been a big learning session for me. The only thing I can think of is to use a respirated mask while working.

Another thing I was thinking, if anyone reading cares to pick this up, I seem to remember years ago, 1980s maybe, there was some kind of room air ionizer sold by KTel or someone like that, which was supposed to precipitate fine particles in the room by ionization or static electricity or whatever. Was it a gimmick? Or would a big one of those work to drop out the <1 micron dust?