Thread: Fine Woodworking - what is it?

Originally Posted by jimbur

you mean nothing short of an obsession

I am happy with that.

Originally Posted by derekcohen

So how would you classify the "fine woodworking of a few centuries ago"?

The apogee, the zenith, irreproachable, the standard by which all future work would be judged, quality not since matched or surpassed. It was masterful in the true sense of the word; an extinct term that is all too often bandied about by the ill-informed to commend the work of (usually) amateurs.

Originally Posted by derekcohen

And that it survives into the present, does that not qualify as "heirloom" (as I defined above)?

My understanding of an heirloom (a noun) is something (possibly revered or of sentimental value, but not necessarily) that is passed from one generation to the next. Your definition of heirloom is that of an adjective that reflects a level of quality and robustness.

You're searching for superlatives for quality work. What that quality is, is a fluid definition dictated by fashion and prejudices.

You're searching for superlatives for quality work. What that quality is, is a fluid definition dictated by fashion and prejudices.

Of course it is dictated by fashion - that is why there is an evolving emphasis as to what constitutes fine woodworking, and why you see it defined by 18th craftsmanship and design. I partly agree with this, that is, my bias is towards furniture made in the 18th Century tradition (i.e. joints). Current fashion would highlight different design features (e.g. elevating dovetailing in drawers), and certainly would include many designs that craftsmen of the 18th Century could only have dreamed of (such as vacuum bagged, veneered, space-age shapes). Not always my scene, but there is indeed some very fine woodworking there, pieces that will be held in esteem for generations.

Prejudices abound in regard to taste, but fine woodworking will always come down to a piece that is defined by quality, and consequently preserved.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by derekcohen

Of course it is dictated by fashion - that is why there is an evolving emphasis as to what constitutes fine woodworking, and why you see it defined by 18th craftsmanship and design.

I don't define 'fine woodworking' as eighteenth-century craftsmanship! I have already stated my definition of 'fine woodworking' early on in this thread. You asked me a couple of posts back how I would define eighteenth-century work; you're muddying the waters again.

You seem to be hung up on the longevity or endurance aspect of furniture now as a yardstick for 'fine' work (you use the words "heirloom", "for generations", "preserved" etc.) which have nothing to do with the quality or fineness of what we're trying to get to the root of. Because 'fine woodworking' is fashionable or contemporary, it doesn't follow that it will be appreciated or preserved by subsequent generations. Conversely, the endearing stuff that does survive the test of time isn't necessarily 'fine' work either.

Woodwould, we will have to agree to disagree on this.

I wonder what the take is of others?

Regards from Perth

Derek

I really opened a can of worms by starting this thread.
I'll toss this in about longevity of items and the vagaries of fashion. I come from a small country village in which many of the cottages had some fine pieces of furniture. It came from the large houses where fashion dictated a change of style and some found their way into estate workers cottages.
In later years of course it made villages like ours happy hunting grounds for antique dealers.
Cheers,
Jim

I once had occasion to drop into an old lady who wanted me to repair a 3 legged table her granddaughter had leaned over and snapped a leg. It was probably one of those Copper Art stocked tables that would be knocked out in large numbers in China. She had quite a mix of furniture in her house nothing really of consequence(just like a huge number of us in the populous). But she then led me to view an old trunk, It was just a simple rectangular box with a flat lid. I thought "what an old piece of junk!". She then told me to open it and examine it closely. It wasmade of single boards about 15" high nailed together with hand forged nails and the top was hinged with 2 pieces of flat leather. The boards had been hand cut and smoothed with an adze! The timber was some sort of hardwood and there was a date pencilled in the lower part of the box......1775! It seems the box had been handed down through the family. Now to me, first impression was a rough old box but I had to change my thinking when the history was revealed. So imagine, having to convert by hand, a log into boards then assemble with, I imagine, rudimentary tools to make a box that may have done how many miles over the years and end up in an old womans belongings,
Would it be Fine Woodworking?.........Probably not but one would have to hold it up with any other piece of Fine Woodwork when told its history.
Well thats my take on the subject

So Jim, is it any clearer now?

Originally Posted by Wongo

So Jim, is it any clearer now?

My brain hurts

Hey Jim

How about posting a few pictures of "things" - furniture, whatever - that you consider to represent "fine woodworking"? Then you/we can decide what it is about these that constitutes "fine" woodworking.

Do you have a project on the go, or one(s) planned that would fit in here?

I think the Military Chests I am currently building (finishing the drawers now)are fine woodworking as I have given a lot of thought to how the materials are used, for example, matching figure, and building with traditional joints, etc.





Halfway there ..

This is my next project, a desk designed by David Haig. I think it is stunning ...






After that I have this Maloof chair to build that will be used with the desk ..



Each of these pieces is technically challenging, and I do consider that one aspect of fine woodworking - that is, most woodworkiers would consider these pieces of a high standard (even if the style is not of your choosing).

However it is not about technical difficulty. It is as much about composition.

Equally, I like this very simple cabinet made by Marcus Sly ...







The construction is not demanding, however it has a simple elegance that is timeless. I love it.

Your turn.

Regards from Perth

Derek

p.s. Woodwould, you made a comment about a "fiddleback blackwood slab". Well I am not sure what this is, but George Nakashima still managed to do it with great style in his Conoid Bench ...

Derek, I would agree those designs by Haig, Maloof and Sly exactly fit the current interpretation of fine woodworking, however they are abhorrent to my eye. They have all the appeal of wood fibre-reinforced resin furniture, or those MDF kitchen cabinet doors with the shrink-wrap wood effect vinyl skins. I just can't comprehend why anyone would strive to emulate Formica!
One can't deny Haig's, Maloof's and Sly's cabinetmaking skills though.

The slab bench by Nakashima is nothing short of crass.

Originally Posted by Woodwould

I just can't comprehend why anyone would strive to emulate Formica!
One can't deny Haig's, Maloof's and Sly's cabinetmaking skills though.

The slab bench by Nakashima is nothing short of crass.

This is what this discussion comes down to (IMHO)- personal preference. Its heartening that no one is rubbishing the quality of the craftsmanship of the different pieces discussed here, but it appears to me that we all like looking at different things.

For example the Marcus Sly cabinet disappoints me because it looks to me like it has a "dunny door" The rest of that piece really pleases me.

TT

Nothing on the go at the moment Derek. Well there is but I can't even get near the lathe never mind the workbench. The whole shed's taken up with material to renovate the house which seems to need attention faster than I can give it. A bathroom is urgently needed.
Most of my own furniture is purely utilitarian being built in a race against time. I've never understood how books accumulate faster than bookcases. No sooner is one done than another two are needed.
I was brought up near Harewood House and my ideal furniture seems to be fixed in that era though I'm not as rigid as WW.
BD enjoys shaker style whereas I'm not keen at all. I dislike some of the French over-the-top stuff, thinking it's a waste of dead tortoises.
I understand WW's formica comments though I would gladly own the Maloof chair and wish I had the ability and time to make it. But then give it a hundred years and see what the comments are then.
To me the most farcical use of good wood is the dashboards of Rolls-Royces. Lovely wood, lovingly finished and looks just like plastic.
As I said in an earlier post there is a great problem with semantics. Should we differentiate between fine woodworking and fine woodwork?
I've enjoyed seeing the worms come out of the can though.
Cheers,
Jim

Woodwould, your comments certainly underline that we all have a different taste in furniture - I think you make beautiful stuff but have little interest in giving the style house space (although may make room if you insist on sending it to Perth ). Much of that era is over decorated for my taste.

No one will ever - or should attempt to - convince another that their choice is better. However, what we can do - and this was my invitation - is use pieces of furniture as illustration to discuss what we consider is "fine" or "not-fine" woodworking.

For example, that "crass" Conoid Bench by Nakashima is a classic. One must understand the zeitgeist. For those who are not familiar with Nakashima, he was a leading light in the American craft movement in the early part of last century, where the focus was on exploring the "organic expressiveness" of timber (I guess we could as well add Jim Krenov to this movement). He also produced classic chairs, such as this ..



In the US he is revered, and that bench above sold for a staggering amount. One can say "who can account for taste", however the point is that context is everything.

Perhaps Nakashima's piece is a useful focal point for this discussion: what is about it that defines "fine woodworking" ... or not?

Regards from Perth

Derek