Thread: I think I found a knot when I got past the rough saw marks...

Do you have a high angle (60^) smoother? Other than that suggestion a card scraper as you've mentioned.

Hi aldav - yes I have a HNT smoother that I love to use.

My concern is not so much smoothing but - because it's not flat yet - bringing down such a large area of end-grain!

I'd probably use the card scraper as you've suggested, but you can reverse the iron in the HNT Gordon plane to make it effectively a scraper. I've never tried this, but may be worth a try.

i will show my ignorance and or stupidity .. why not a random orbital sander, starting with a courser grade then getting finer. Or, does sanding not come into the equation of you purists?

Belt sander! I haven't worked rosegum but if it is like the other 'gums' trying to hand work large amounts of end grain with edged tools can make you rethink all of your life choices, including why was I born, why do I hate myself so much, etc.

Maybe I'm being a little dramatic or maybe this is a little self reflection on my part but I'd say sand it. Unless it's already 'almost there' a scraper is going to take a long time. If you wanted to do only handtools you could try using a scrub plane but there is a good chance chunks will get pulled out of the knot where the grain is rising straight up, at least has been my experience with spotted gum and blackbutt.

Hi Tony

Correct. Power sanding is quietly conducted deeds of darkness. Think a priest in a trenchcoat at the pokies.

My only caveat with belt sanding is that it can sometimes be very hard to get the sanding marks out of end grain. You think you've sanded them out with finer random orbital or hand sanding, then you oil it and there they are.
If you have access to a drum sander, it would do the job, but the same caveat still applies.

Thanks Alex

I have a very stubborn streak so last night I decided to really try my best with planing. I also do work at night at home and running a belt sander is not an option because of noise, until weekend.

I took my No 5 Stanley-pattern jack plane, flattened the iron (I had been doing a tiny bevel with the "Charlesworth" trick, but that inhibits how closely you can set the chipbreaker). I selected a metal plane with a little weight - to give a little inertia to get through the end-grain.

Once it was mirror-polished, I did a number on the bevel - diamond plates then 8,000 and 16,000 stones, then light strop. I then set the chipbreaker within a bee's proverbial of the edge.

The results? I got a good few swipes without tearout right. I was really chuffed to get a fairly smooth, good shaving almost the entire length (the shaving fell apart where the grain was end-grain). It was working! Take that!

However the demoralising thing... was the edge did not last long at all. So I was briefly elated but then it started scudding and stopping and not much fun. I think I will end up sanding on the weekend to flatten. But always good to stretch yourself.

Chris

One problem with a sander maybe that the knot is harder than the surrounding timber so when you belt sand it, it can remove surrounding timber and leave the knot proud.

I can highly recommend having some HSS blades to hand for this sort of thing. You can go the premium route and invest in the Veritas replacement blades for Stanley/Record planes (even better when paired with the Veritas chipbreaker), or keep an eye out for 2nd hand Titan or Stanley (Aus) HSS blades when they come up on E-bay/Gumtree/Bookface. I have them fitted to all my bench planes (bar my no. 8) because I got a bit fed up with sharpening.

Alternatively put on a decent back-bevel. Similar concept to “The Charlesworth Trick” but instead of just a couple of degrees to clean up the back of the blade; put on a hefty 10 or 15 degrees. That will turn your tool into a 55 or 60 degree high angle plane. Don’t worry about not being so easy to get the chip breaker close to the edge; HNT Gordon doesn’t bother fitting one... Before I started using HSS I had (still have!) spare blades with 10 degree back bevels, I just engraved “BB” on the top so I could instantly recognise them. I actually have enough HSS blades now to have a set of those with BB’s too now... just waiting for the need I guess!

Thanks Chief

I have a PMV-11 replacement blade for my No 7. I might try and stick it in a 4 1/2 or 5 1/2 and see how that goes.

Out of interest do you know any reliable suppliers of replacement Veritas blades (ie to fit in Stanley pattern planes)? They have been out of stock at Carbatec for it seems almost a year.

I buy all my Veritas gear direct from Lee Valley; I resent paying the Carbatax.

2" assemblies in PMV-11 will be available in early April; 2-3/8" will be available in July. If you're after the assemblies I might grab one or two extra myself and split all the shipping costs with you (US & Aus post) you; I need at least one 2-3/8" assembly myself. I'm happy to run with this as I have an account with them.

The only problem with LV is that there are WAY TOO MANY things I want.....

Thanks Chief I will PM - I am keen to swap in a few PMV-11 blades. Recently I think I've got my sharpening down a bit so I am more confident about realising gains from better fundamentals.

I didn't think the price difference at the link was that much, thinking of the price charged at Carbatec, until I realised it's the whole assembly!

Chris, if you look at the grain direction around your timber feature you will see that it literally runs in all directions. This means that if you try to shoot the length of the timber then you must encounter reverse grain and the risk of tear-out is quite high.

If you have access to a large joinery then you could get it put through a thickness sander - this automatically sands flat, and zero tear-out.

Without a thickness sander then I suggest that you need a high angle plane and technique, emphasis on technique. You must plane outwards from the centre of the feature so that you are always planing with the grain. Plane in the direction of the arrows. If you plane the other way you will probably get tear-out.

Knot Planing.jpg

In detail, my technique for jointing your board would be:

• Get an absolutely flat surface a little larger than the board (eg MDF) and cover it with chalk,
• Rub board on MDF; high spots will become chalked,
• Plane out chalk marks. If featured area is chalked plane only in direction of arrows,
• Rub again on MDF and again plane out chalk marks,
• Repeat until board is uniformly chalked. This indicates it is flat,
• Take off final chalk marks with card scraper or very light ROS.

By far the best option is a thickness sander but only the largest joineries can afford their high cost and the high dust removal requirements.

My technique is not good enough to use a belt sander or a random orbital sander to do the actual flattening.