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Thread: Getting a square square
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8th September 2002, 03:19 PM #1
Getting a square square
OK, here is the silliest of silly questions.
My Dad was a pattern maker for GMH in SA and made his own tools. I have a small steel square that he made, 50mm back x 75mm blade, and it is perfect. I have 2 other "good" squares, wooden handles and steel blades and much larger, and they both have good days and bad days. Would I lie? One day they will be square and the next day way off. I test a square against a straight edge before I use it.
Why would a square go out of square and, to get something that will not spoil my day, what should I buy and where?
It only takes one drink to get me loaded. Trouble is, I can't remember if it's the thirteenth or fourteenth.
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8th September 2002 03:19 PM # ADSGoogle Adsense Advertisement
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8th September 2002, 06:03 PM #2
Just go and get a cheap and nasty Starret, they're OK I suppose and about the same price as Makita Router.
I just use three cabinet makers squares, from 12" to 36" amd manage to get by with these, would love a Starret but reluctant to spend that much on a square that will probably get dropped.Stupidity kills. Absolute stupidity kills absolutely.
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8th September 2002, 08:18 PM #3
Thanks a bunch. I saw one in an English magazine for a mere 180 pounds. Maths is not my long suit but that is something over $500 by my calculation. I could buy the item I want to make for less than that.
It only takes one drink to get me loaded. Trouble is, I can't remember if it's the thirteenth or fourteenth.
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9th September 2002, 01:27 AM #4
Robert
The correct way to test the accuracy of a square is to tape a sheet of paper against the edge of a table, draw a line with the square set perpendicular against the table edge, then flip the square 180 degrees, draw another line, and check if they are parallel. The error you get is double the actual error in the square.
Keep in mind that the arms may not be parallel, and inside- and outside measurements may not then be the same. This may account for your "good" square inaccuracies.
The best squares (at a reasonable price!) are "machinist squares".
I swear by my adjustable (0-45-90-135 degrees) "Nobex". I have been frustrated by many other brands. I recently took apart my Crown and reset it. It is now accurate. Ironically, my cheapish Stanley combination square is accurate. On the other hand, my Stanley Carpenter's square was fractionally out, which caused me endless grief as I had been using it to set my table saw blade! I couldn't understand why I was getting such poor cuts. The theory of resetting carpenter's squares is to hammer at the inside of the corner if the angle is too small, and hammer at the outside of the corner if it is too large.
Now, if you REALLY want a great square, consider the Bridge City squares (available from Carba-Tec). "Master Try Square" is $219, and the Combination Square" is $475. Perhaps next Father's Day?!
Regards
Derek (in Perth)Visit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on constructing handtools, handtool reviews, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.
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9th September 2002, 09:36 AM #5SENIOR MEMBER
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I have arrived at the same conclusions as Derek.
I have recently purchased a small Noblex, it's great to use and very accurate at all settings.
The large size is on my wish list.
Small engineer's squares are great for machine setting.
I find it interesting when others arrive at the same conclusions as I do.
Cheers
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Some days I turns thisaway, somedays I turns thataway and other days I don't turn at all.Some days I turns thisaway, somedays I turns thataway and other days I don't give a stuff so I don't turn at all.
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9th September 2002, 01:02 PM #6
Try this product. Its Aussie made and great value for money!
http://www.gifkins.com.au/PRECISION%20SQUARE.htm
I quote from Gifkin's web site:
The Pocket Square™ is machined from laminated phenolic resin in a 5 step process using CNC machinery to ensure accuracy.
With other woodworking squares, no matter how expensive, they will only be accurate until they are dropped for the first time (the better squares can be recalibrated). The Pocket Square™, being machined out of a solid piece of (dimensionally stable) material, will maintain its accuracy forever, even after being dropped on concrete!
You may chip the corners, but it will still be accurate!
Technical details:
Guaranteed square ± 0.05mm over its 125mm length (temp. range -20°C to 100°C)
Square ± 1/20mm ---- that’s Square!!!
Convenient size for your pocket so it’s always within reach!
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11th September 2002, 12:02 AM #7
I have a couple of "rafter" squares. Not the big metal ones.
Stanley doo this funny plastic square that is suposed to help you set out rafters, comes with an instruction manual on how to use it ( all in imperial )
One realy good thing they stay square (within the relms of reality) even if you drop it from a ladder.
I've had one for years now & its great.
It's not a staret combination i know but sure is handy. Use it so much I baught an other.
The now come in fluro colours!!!
I also recently purchased a steel combination square from carbatec us imported, it seems quite nice & reasonably priced.
Any thing with sharp teeth eats meat.
Most powertools have sharp teeth.
People are made of meat.
Abrasives can be just as dangerous as a blade.....and 10 times more painfull.
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11th September 2002, 01:53 PM #8Member
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Soundman,
Does it look like a large right angle triangle? If so it is called a speed square. You can get them in metal or plastic and they are pretty handy.
Cheers,
Peter
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17th September 2002, 11:15 PM #9
Yep that the one, real handy. I have one old gray one the new one is fluro ooorrranGEEE.
I notice carbatec have a high falutin version in steel with some referal to japanese.Any thing with sharp teeth eats meat.
Most powertools have sharp teeth.
People are made of meat.
Abrasives can be just as dangerous as a blade.....and 10 times more painfull.
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18th September 2002, 03:02 AM #10
As it happens I was waiting for a parcel from Gifkins when I posted the original message. It has since arrived, with the little square included. Great for squaring up boxes, saw blades and such applications, and for testing carpenter's squares, but not designed to be used as a marking out square.
Thanks for all the postings. I will be in Perth for a few days soon and will have time to do the rounds. I now have some brands and styles to check out and the Gifkins square to do the checking.
It only takes one drink to get me loaded. Trouble is, I can't remember if it's the thirteenth or fourteenth.
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17th August 2005, 11:37 PM #11
Go the engineers square - Moore & Wright...good pommie gear (when they used to be able to make it before Thatcher crushed the idea of doing a good days work).
Expensive combo squares are "handy", but gee, being square is fundamental to working with most materials. Just get hold of square that's square. Think of it this way....what's the point in having a flash kitchen knife that set you back a couple of hundred bucks if it won't cut through a tomato skin?
When you do get the square that's square, treat it like a newborn - then when you're old and that square has got older with you, it'll look after you with the same level of love and respect you once showed it.
May your lines forever be square
Cheers
Smed
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17th August 2005, 11:47 PM #12
for setting out joints I use two engineers squares I got from lee valley, they work well and are always square, I am pretty careful not to drop them though. I would like a larger one or preferably a starret but I cant justify the cost... yet
You can never have enough planes, that is why Mr Stanley invented the 1/2s
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18th August 2005, 01:58 AM #13
Well, I am going to make my own reference square.
A steel block as the body, a steel blade as the, well, blade!
If it turns out as well as the Clenton clone I quickly whipped up (because I needed a good square RIGHT ^%$# NOW!!) I'll be happy.
Seems I managed to get a brass blade and a small block of ebony to within 0.02mm at worst. Surprised myself actually, I was finguring 0.2mm, but the micrometer doesn't lie.
Same design, just made in steel. I'll use it to check everything else. Should cost about $1 and an hour or two.
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18th August 2005, 09:12 AM #14
Schtoo is the first person in this thread to even mention the Clenton, and no-one's given them a wrap for being about the best deal around AND a local product. Not only do they look like a woodworker's tool, they are adjustable, so if they get a severe bump or take that short and nasty trip to the floor, they can be quickly set right. OK, there are cheaper squares around, but spread over a couple of lifetimes, what's a mere 100 bucks?
A quick check by the method Derek outlined above, every now and then, and your layouts should be perfect henceforth.....
My 150mm Clenton is the tool I use all the time, had it 7 years or so, and in that time have had to adjust it 3 or 4 times. It's a very convenient size for general use like checking edges when planing, but of course, you often need a longer one when laying out panels and large pieces.
Fo that I usually use a (non-Starrett!) combination square. Had it much too long to remember the price, but it was a cheerfully cheap thing, bought back when price was always my main concern. It's solid and reliable, but was consistentlly inaccurate as purchased. However, a little tweaking soon got it right, and it's certainly handy at times.
I've rarely met a roofing square that's square both inside and out. (I'm talking the hardware-store versions here, not the rarefied catalogue jobs). I keep meaning to lash out and get a decent one, but it's hard to justify such a big layout for something I need about twice a year. When you need it though, there's nothing else quite does the same job, and I suppose if I did have a decent one it would see the daylight a lot more often.....
Cheers,IW
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18th August 2005, 10:08 AM #15
How is it that people find these ancient threads?
Up until 10 hours ago the last activity on this thread was in September 2002 :eek:
Do people really have the time and inclination to go back so far in the archives?
I agree with IanW btw re the Clenton square. Every shed should have one imo