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2nd February 2013, 04:16 PM #1Novice
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Should I glue and screw Melamine chipboard Joints
Hi guys I am building a kitchen bench cupboard about 1.2m long. It will consist of a melamine chipboard box sitting on a kickboard box it will have a fixed shelf and a 32mm thick laminex top attached with screws. The finished box will have two Tas. Oak veneered end panels that I have bought to size when I bought the Tas. Oak doors. (The Tas Oak panels will be separate from the box not part of it)
The kickboard box is completed and I am almost finished cutting to size the melamine chipboard panels for the main box. This is the first time I have used melamine chipboard and I got good advice here re cutting it with my circular saw, not too deep with masking tape over the cut and then finishing it with my router.
My question is should I glue as well as screw the joints or is screwing sufficient (the chipboard is 16mm thick, it is the moisture resistant type with green flecks in it). I don't mind going the extra yard for a better job. If I should glue as well as screw then what glue is best for melamine. I see at Mitre10 they have Gorilla glue (not suitable for some plastics???) and they have Sika Bond Techgrip Polyurethane glue and Accent Polyurethane glue. My screws are countersunk ribbed head square drive chipboard screws 8G x 35mm. I plan to drill a pilot hole for the screws so that they won't split the chipboard. I also plan to sit the shelf on 42mmx19mm meranti rails and attach the shelf to the rails with screws (and glue??). Thanks in advance for any advice.
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2nd February 2013, 05:46 PM #2
Just screws will be enough. Drilling a pilot hole is a great idea.
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2nd February 2013, 05:55 PM #3GOLD MEMBER
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Agreed with Wongo. Just screws is the usual way its done in the trade.
Any reason not to do an adjustable shelf, in the usual way of drilling a grid of 5mm holes and using little shelf supports? A timber rail in a melamine box looks a bit odd to me.
Cheers
ArronApologies for unnoticed autocomplete errors.
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2nd February 2013, 08:09 PM #4GOLD MEMBER
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Hi sandman55,
Drilling pilot holes is not only a good idea it is essential chip board will split if screwed without them even if it is not obvious it will happen, also the only glue I would use is av56 (available from cabinet hardware suppliers and used widely in the trade) which is a glue designed for just this purpose to glue porous to non porous surfaces. When used it will like a pva glue with timber make the joint stronger than the material itself eg: the melamine face will tear away from chipboard with chipboard attached before the joint lets go.
A lot of cabinet work is done without glue but I would always use it myself for cabinet work. (but then I always over build everything.)
Regards Rod.
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2nd February 2013, 08:27 PM #5
Only variation I would make to other responses would be longer screws. We used to use 45mm chipboard screws for carcass assembly, rather than the 35 you are proposing. Also tacked components together with 16 guage 35 mm brads before drilling pilot holes, brads abt 12-15mm from screw holes. If something needs minor adjustment to flush up, this can be achieved with a rubber mallet without leaving marks. Once satisfied, pilot drill and screw together one seam at a time.
I used to be an engineer, I'm not an engineer any more, but on the really good days I can remember when I was.
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2nd February 2013, 08:58 PM #6Novice
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I would also recommend using a screw driver to drive the screws in. Not an impact driver/cordless screwdriver, far to easy to widen the holes
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3rd February 2013, 12:23 AM #7Novice
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Thanks guys for so many replys, tomorrow I will get the 45mm screws and brads, How far apart would you recommend the screws 150mm? I just measured the internal shank of an 8G chipboard screw and it's between the drill sizes 3/32 and 7/64 so I tried a screw in a scrap with a 3/32 hole and it didn't seem to split.
@ Arron I was going to make a fixed shelf to give the cupboard more strength (I tend to over engineer things) I was going to set the side rails back 40mm from the edge of the shelf and paint them white. I just asked my wife if she wanted an adjustable shelf and she said no but I will think about it.
Once again thanks to everyone for the prompt and helpful replys.
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3rd February 2013, 07:58 AM #8
Instead of screwing you will get a much stronger carcase if you build using dowels or biscuits. In Europe where they've been building kitchen cabinets from melamine coated particle board for about 50 years they don't any metal fixtures at all. Even flat pack furniture for home assembly is constructed with dowelled joints. But if you want to go down the screw route three screws per side appears to be the standard so 150mm between screws would probably be excessively over-engineered. Go for it!
For your hinges, only buy "Blum" or "Hettich". Blum are available from Bunnies, Hettich from Mitre 10; you might find a local cabinet maker/supplier who will sell them too.
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3rd February 2013, 10:33 AM #9
I've worked at a place once that AV Syntec, nails and only one screw at the front was standard. These were builders kitchens, one of whom we called " Muller the crooked dealer ". If we had to break a joint, after it cured the, melamine broke and stuck to the HMR end grain. Once cupboards are screwed to the wall, almost impossible to break.
Cheers, Bill
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3rd February 2013, 11:43 AM #10Novice
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Thanks for your help guys, the dowel idea sounds good I could add some after the screws to give a bit more joint strength. I have seen some metal hinges at Mitre10 I will check the brand.
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3rd February 2013, 01:30 PM #11
Good Morning Sandman
The chemistry of melamine is designed so that almost nothing sticks to it - hence you must use a glue that is specifically designed to stick melamine. The advantage of gluing joints is that the glue keeps spillage and condensation out of the joints - its not about strength.
I made an assembly jig to ensure all corners were absolutely square, pre-drilling holes is essential, and a little lubricant (grease, oil, vegetable oil, soap, whatever) does make screwing easier but I power screwed everything. Also, no screws should be closer than 50mm from the end of s piece of melamine or it might delaminates/split. We used 50mm screws!
Fair Winds
Graeeme
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3rd February 2013, 02:16 PM #12
With respect, Syntec AV56 is all about strength, thats why we could get away with mainly using nails. Green HMR melamine board is used to deal with humidty and moisture.
Cheers, Bill
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3rd February 2013, 03:46 PM #13Novice
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Thanks for your comments guys. I have decided based on the advise I have been given here to tack the box together using brads and when I am happy with it I will drill pilot holes and screw as Malb suggested. Then I will use three screws per side and when it is finished I will drill and glue 8mm dowels (thanks for the tip about dowels Chief Tiff), with the dowels I will inly need to use PVA glue. With the shelf I am tossing between an adjustable shelf or screw and dowel it in place, I will build the box first and if I make it adjustable it shouldn't be too hard to drill if I make a jig with a scrap of hard wood. Also on the base and back with some 6g x 30mm screws I have cut some scraps of chip board 50mm x 50 (2 per seam) and I will pilot drill and screw them temporary to the edges to help hold the sides in place, the edges are nice and square thanks to the router. Well I'd better get out to it thanks guys.
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3rd February 2013, 05:12 PM #14GOLD MEMBER
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Glue and screw is a bit of over kill. Three or even better four screws per side is plenty strong enough for a kitchen cupboard. Glue makes a mess and every joint will require cleaning and quickly. Unseen joints can be located with a couple of brads or the use of a couple of small corner clamps can make alignment much easier.
As for dowelling and biscuits, they are usually used in mass production rather than one offs as the time spent setting up, clamping, cleanup and waiting for glue to dry, all add labour time.
Two shots with the brad gun and a few particle board screws and the joint's done. On to the next one.
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3rd February 2013, 05:17 PM #15GOLD MEMBER
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Oh and forget the painted shelf supports. They too are a gross dose of over kill. A skrewed 16mm shelf will hold no worries. In fact, you can stand on them to fix the overheads if you forgot the step ladder and you didnt have too bigger christmas.
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