Thread: I'm thinking about starting a share shed in Sydney's inner west

Interesting idea, Scott.
These guys in Melbs do a vaguely similar scheme. The 'membership' fee is $210 per year. Workshop access is Tuesday evenings 6:00-9:30pm...
Information for forge members of the Waterside Metal Art Studio | Waterside Metal Art Studio

Also in Melbourne is a blacksmithing association that has workshop, Welcome . Regular membership is $70 per year. Access equates to 6.5 hrs every second Sunday (ie, also quite limited).

Food for thought.
regs,
AndrewOC

Originally Posted by scottbr

I have solved the insurance issue, but I'm curious about the 'structure' you mention that was legal but no longer is. What can you tell me?
Oh, and I have no intention of 'insuring away a duty of care.'

It was a loophole that has since been filled. As it is no longer available and has been deemed an offence to persue this course of Company structure I would prefer not to go into detail on a public forum other than to say it was serious enough for me to discontinue my activities.
The burning question for you to consider when it comes to "solving" the insurance issue is just how protected are you? Sure, they will find a box that more or less fits. At least well enough so a policy can be drawn up and premiums be charged but when push comes to shove, it is not your interests they have at heart. If they can avoid a payout they will.
Your Duty of Care is the major stumbling block and, even though you may have the best of intentions, it is quite easy to fall short of the mark. At least in the Courts eyes anyway.
I have a cousin who is a barrister, we have discussed it at length and have both come to the conclusion it aint worth the risk. Pity.

Originally Posted by AndrewOC

Interesting idea, Scott.
These guys in Melbs do a vaguely similar scheme. The 'membership' fee is $210 per year. Workshop access is Tuesday evenings 6:00-9:30pm...
Information for forge members of the Waterside Metal Art Studio | Waterside Metal Art Studio

Also in Melbourne is a blacksmithing association that has workshop, Welcome . Regular membership is $70 per year. Access equates to 6.5 hrs every second Sunday (ie, also quite limited).

Food for thought.
regs,
AndrewOC

Thanks Andrew. Who would have thought there would be an operation like that. Definitely food for thought. As is a place in Adelaide that someone sent me a message about. I'm going to have a chat to the people who run Makers Space in my suburb, too. I'm not really a competitor of theirs (or the three blokes who run woodwork classes locally). Mine will not really be a commercial operation, more as Ian suggested earlier in this thread a 'well resourced hobby that I share with other people'.
I'll keep pursuing this because I have now have two locals I know who are keen for me to get it up and running. Both are retired and like to work with wood but lack the space and tools. They also get a bit bored with their own company.
Somebody suggested users could get their own insurance to cover themselves when they visit - this would be in addition to my insurance. I have not investigated this.
I'm quite prepared to make it a rule that nobody can use the band saw or mitre saw because they are the probably the sources of great risk.

Hi Scott,

Interesting thread so far, I've enjoyed the read.

It seems to me that you have two main goals from the venture; to make friends (community), and to make money ($15,000/year).

Satisfying both of these goals at once may prove quite tricky, but I'm sure it can be done.

As for the legal and tax stuff, there's no substitute for actual advice from a professional.

Cheers,
Zac.

Sent from my Nokia 4.2 using Tapatalk

I doubt that getting the members to provide their own insurance will satisfy your requirements as if there was an incident it would just mean their insurer would be suing you to recoup their costs rather than the individual in the same manner it happens with car insurance.
The insurer pays out their policy holder and then seeks reimbursement of their costs wherever they can from the other party / parties

Good luck with it all, it would be nice to see this get off the ground.

Originally Posted by Fergiz01

Hi Scott,

Interesting thread so far, I've enjoyed the read.

It seems to me that you have two main goals from the venture; to make friends (community), and to make money ($15,000/year).

Satisfying both of these goals at once may prove quite tricky, but I'm sure it can be done.

As for the legal and tax stuff, there's no substitute for actual advice from a professional.

Yep, that's it. The money compensates for the foregone rent and pays for maintenance and compensates me marginally for my time. And I like the idea of expanding the community we already have at home thanks to the ceramics business.
I'll be semi retiring next year and I know other locals who have either retired or are contemplating it. I am very conscious of the need for people when they retire to maintain contact with people and keep exploring stuff.
Accounting advice I have covered. And strangely for someone law abiding, I know half a dozen lawyers. My needs are in a different area from the ones they practice in, but they will have mates who will help me - perhaps even mates who want to make a chair or something.
I'll be doing this shed anyway - I have wanted to take over that building for 20 years. I hope I get the chance to share it with other people.

Scottbr, the idea is a noble one. Creating community takes a special and dedicated person. Its a good thing.

Please keep us updated, its terribly important. I read a few science journals and a couple of them last week were talking about population aging and overall decline (50%+ to 2100!). We have an aging population... keeping people engaged, doing and being socially engaged will become fantastically critical as the years progress.

These projects will become super important. Your research and publication of your travels is important. Perhaps engaging with the council or government (at some level) may find solutions, or at least have them green-light or create a special form of community-group-insurance "product" to cover such socially engaging projects.

My thinking is the government will be pushing for such projects (maybe covertly they do now?) and therefore the kinds of questions you ask now (legal, safety, regulatory, permissions, etc) are exactly those that will need to be addressed a thousand times over every year by every council region.

Woodpixie I think you’re in la la land if you think anyone in power really goes a S .
Here in NSW we had a terrific asset in precisely what you are espousing ie keeping retirees and other’s engaged and doing stuff in a safe well run, well equipped environment.
It was called TAFE.
They ran evening and day courses where after initial training you could do your own projects using well equipped workshops under the eye of experienced tradesmen.
Over the years I did Welding of all types, Foundry, Fibreglassing, Patternmaking and mould making for Autobody fibreglassing, Fitting and Machining, Panelbeating, Spray painting, Metal fabrication etc.
I started doing these when I was 16 and would still be doing something if the system hadn’t been so completely gutted.
The interaction between the different ages was something I particularly enjoyed.
The gubernmunt in its wisdom has put a lot of funding into men’s sheds, in my experience these are bitch factories with ex senior seat polishers telling skilled tradies how to suck eggs.
The results are a lot of completely unskilled people using equipment with no training whatsoever or skilled people being denied use of stuff they’ve used all their lives because the bloke in charge of that area/equipment was a member earlier and is in with the clique running the show.
I think I might just be getting tad bit cynical in my old age
H.

Originally Posted by clear out

...
Here in NSW we had a terrific asset in precisely what you are espousing ie keeping retirees and other’s engaged and doing stuff in a safe well run, well equipped environment.
It was called TAFE....

The demise of TAFE was not restricted to NSW; ultimately it was a Federal funding issue and all states suffered, except for the ACT, of course.

Canberra is very good at looking after Canberra!

Cynical Clear Out? Yeah. Maybe a bit bitter, too, but we all bring our past experiences to these sort of conversations.
Yes, it is a pity TAFE was gutted. Having said that, I did a welding course last year at St George TAFE. Private organisations have tried to fill the gap left by TAFE, but it's tough without being subsidized as TAFE is. There is one TAFE in western Sydney that wants to get short courses up and running again. I have had several meetings with them in my role on the board of a NFP and we have talked about this. I would also do short courses at TAFE if there were more on offer.
There are some enlightened councils who also want to encourage this sort of thing and often there are grants on offer for things that add to the community.
Some years ago I sat next to the bloke who was head of the men's shed organisation. He told me they function best in country towns - maybe fewer egos. The covert purpose of them is of course men's health.

Woodpixel, our place has functioned as a hub for the community for 20 years and I like it. My kids have grown up with a constant stream of often interesting people coming and going from the ceramics studio and the Airbnb upstairs. We started something extra a few months ago when a few people we know started working from home because of that pesky virus. One of them said that there was no end to the week. On Friday, they just sort of closed their computer and drifted into another room. So we started hosting Friday drinks in the studio. People show up at around 5pm and bring some drinks or cheese or something and hang around till 6.30 or so. I'm still working in the city and I'll get home from work today at 5pm and have no idea who might show up. Sometimes it's just a couple of people, and sometimes a dozen. The people change every week and they're not always people I know well. It's a nice end to the week for all of us. Creating a community takes commitment, which we have.

Given that Canberra is represented by three lower house reps only, and the rest of them belong to the rest of you, actually CIT owes its relative health to a government that has continued to fund it. Unlike other state governments.

Originally Posted by scottbr

Cynical Clear Out? Yeah. Maybe a bit bitter, too, but we all bring our past experiences to these sort of conversations.
Yes, it is a pity TAFE was gutted. Having said that, I did a welding course last year at St George TAFE. Private organisations have tried to fill the gap left by TAFE, but it's tough without being subsidized as TAFE is.

Last time I looked, NSW TAFE teaching sections had to generate most of their own funds from student fees. Out of those fees comes 20 to 30% to pay the non teaching management. This means that teaching sections effectively receive 20 to 30% less per student than they did 6 years ago. And you wonder why TAFE teaching sections are struggling?
Private training providers and TAFE student fees all come from the same source in NSW under Smart and Skilled.
The gaps In TAFE has been caused by successive Govts trying to turn Govt owned VET education into a money making enterprise rather than treat it as an education source.
We see that in the ridiculous costs of courses that have led to the demise of the so called hobby courses so popular years earlier - the ones that Clear Out referred to.
Private providers wouldn’t be in it if the wasn’t a buck in it. The problem is that there quite a few who have grabbed the money (millions) and run leaving students with no education at all.
I’ve worked for both, so I would say I have a fair idea of the current state of affairs.

Originally Posted by Lappa

Private providers wouldn’t be in it if the wasn’t a buck in it. The problem is that there quite a few who have grabbed the money (millions) and run leaving students with no education at all.
I’ve worked for both, so I would say I have a fair idea of the current state of affairs.

That number should be BILLIONS left for you and I as tax payers to "write off".

From Education: Australia'''s vocational education system is still creating victims (dated April 22, 2018 )
"It has cost taxpayers more than $7.5 billion, according to government figures, including billions of dollars in rorted loans and bad debt that the federal Education Department concedes will never be recouped."

sheese

Yep, it's all been a huge fail. And out at Lidcombe TAFE, for example, are whole floors of machines and equipment that sit idle much of time. My wife has watched with disappointment as TAFEs have abandoned their ceramics teaching, too. Not many of them do that anymore. The vacuum left by the gutting of TAFE for courses in hands-on stuff won't be filled in any sort of meaningful capacity.