I'm thinking about starting a share shed in Sydney's inner west

A month or so back I went to Kogarah TAFE to check out an Auction.
They were clearing out Panelbeating and Fashion Design.
My daughter did the fashion course straight out of High school.
No jobs only internship rorts so she did the 4 year Uni course and is now a TAS high school teacher.
Shes just started her career but is much better eguipped thanks to her 2 years of practical hands on learning at TAFE. Teaching wood, Metal,Food and Textiles to junior classes as a start.
She wants to specialise in Texties and thanks to TAFE is well equipped for this.
Ive been doing part time work at the Uni she trained at recently and the students straight out of school with no prior training or life experience are going to struggle once they graduate due to having to be able to teach in all 4 core subjects and a heap of computer stuff. Not to mention 3D printing etc.
A few have done prior courses such as the Sturt Wood year at Mittagong and they’ll be ok.
In the past others could attend night classes at TAFE and pick up skills in areas of interest or need.
So to educate for a highly skilled workforce we need to survive in the world we shut down TAFE.
Indeed the clever country.
H.
The pity of this is the students are so keen to learn hands on skills even from an old fart like myself.

You're right, it's going to be tough for those school teachers to teach stuff when they can't get the education in it themselves.
I'm trying to talk my eldest daughter into a teaching career. It's a good thing to do.

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Originally Posted by clear out

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Shes just started her career but is much better eguipped thanks to her 2 years of practical hands on learning at TAFE. Teaching wood, Metal,Food and Textiles to junior classes as a start.....

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So pleased to read this. Some one appropriately well trained in spite of the best efforts of the education departments. Its a favourite rant by a very good friend, a well retired high school teacher of trade subjects.

Years ago, trade teachers were apprenticeship trained tradesmen with some years on the tools and then a certificate of education. They innately knew how to handle tools, the reasons behind safety protocols, loved making things and enjoyed the interactions of the kids.

Then some genius in education department central decided that this was not the way to do things. The tradesmen who knew what they were doing were deemed "inadequately trained". It would be better to take generally trained teachers - any degree plus a dip ed - put them through a six week trade course and they become a technology teacher. These IEIE's - instant experts in everything - frequently didn't even know how to hold the tools properly, let alone use them with some skill..... But the trades had been "upgraded" to technology. There were some strange results - woodwork could be taught on a computer; no need to cut wood, create dust, risk injury, etc.

But the sheep in the other ed depts looked over the fence and followed suit.

Of course, there were some brilliant successes; that small coterie of natural teachers who excelled in spite of their heirarchy.

We are lucky in my trade that you have to have the relevant trade certificate and a trade license. When I first worked at TAFE you needed a trade certificate, a minimum of 5 years as a fully qualified mechanic and post trade quals just to get invited for an all day trade test.
If you got accepted you then did a 2 years Teaching degree and had a full time job.

Same basic trade quals still required now but instead of a teaching degree its a Cert IV TAE qualification that you get at a private provider for $700 and a weekend or two of inconvenience.
Very few full time jobs now, part time is the norm which makes its hard to get top quality tradespersons
(but not impossible) if you can’t guarantee a full week of work for long periods of time. No one will leave their job for a few hours here and there unless it’s nights and that just about a thing if the last in Trades.

anyways, just my 2 bobs worth.

Okay, where did we get up to with this endeavor?

That pesky virus threw a spanner in the works. My business is still limping along and may not recover, but I'm pressing on with the shed at home regardless. I'm posting here and telling my mates so it's more awkward for me if I lose my nerve and back out. My electrician is really keen. He lives in a small house and has been trying to restore an old poker machine for ages in his garden shed. He wants a few metres of bench space to lay everything out - and some company. I think there will be people who dip in and out with projects that may or may not involve wood.

July 1 is when I take back the building and start fitting it out.

I have a Hammer sliding panel saw coming in four or so months - the small one. It was expensive and I told my wife that I spent a 'stupid amount on a machine'. He reply was, 'Scott, every shed needs a hero machine.' I went the Hammer because in eight years or so when I perhaps decide to downsize, it will sell well as a second hand machine. I will be the only one using the saw till I satisfactorily resolve the insurance issue.

I have been collecting hand tools and digging out and servicing some stuff I have had buried for a while.

Last week, I bought a dust collector from an auction. It was only $160, so worth the punt. A small joinery factory was getting rid of everything - deceased estate. I had the DC delivered and as a bonus it came full of wood shavings. Really full. The bottom bags were chockers, and both upper bags amazingly were half full. Yep. It took me hours to empty it all and put it into smaller bags.

It works well. Carbatec 3hp, 12 inch fan, made in 1998. Yep, there are much better DCs out there, but it will do to start with. The bags would be original, so they will need replacing. I would welcome advice on that.
Attachment 494020Attachment 494021Attachment 494022

The well "dinged" filter bag housing is typical of old DCs towed from pillar to post inside a shed. This along with other factors is what leads them to leak fine dust back into the shed. Will you be able to install it outside your shed?

I recommend ditching the 3 way splitter in the intake and installing 6" ducting inside the shed to all machines.

As far a filter bags go, once conditioned needle felt filters are equally as efficient at fine dust removal as pleated filters. However this doesn't matter if the DC is located outside. The advantages of pleated filters is about a 10% increase in flow and they take longer to clog up.

The other advantage of an outside DC is that the small pinpricks that form in the dust collection bags resulting in lots of fine escaping is not important so you can reuse teh collection bag a few times before discarding it.

Thanks for replying, Bob.

Yes, it is well dinged. The original wheels are buggered, too. I'll do a better job than them on the fix.

Gee, those 'needle felt filters' are a lot cheaper than the pleated bags. Carbatec are $105 and Sherwood are $35.

I live in a pretty densely populated part of Sydney, so the DC is going to be inside for now. I know this is not ideal. The only upside is that the main machines that the DC will service - saw and planner/thicknesser will be beside the machine, so no need for long runs of ducting.

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Originally Posted by clear out

Ive been doing part time work at the Uni she trained at recently and the students straight out of school with no prior training or life experience are going to struggle once they graduate due to having to be able to teach in all 4 core subjects and a heap of computer stuff. Not to mention 3D printing etc.
A few have done prior courses such as the Sturt Wood year at Mittagong and they’ll be ok.
In the past others could attend night classes at TAFE and pick up skills in areas of interest or need.

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I am seeing this issue first hand. I am currently doing an industrial technologies degree for secondary and via uni we get 2 weeks in a workshop for wood and 2 week for metal. Hence why I am doing a cert IV in furniture at tafe on top of uni, though I don't have to. Most people in the workshop weeks have never touched a machine.

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Originally Posted by scottbr

Thanks for replying, Bob.
Yes, it is well dinged. The original wheels are buggered, too. I'll do a better job than them on the fix.
Gee, those 'needle felt filters' are a lot cheaper than the pleated bags. Carbatec are $105 and Sherwood are $35.

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Sure but the needle felt bags will clog up quicker than the pleated filters and need felts are a PITA to clean, but don't clean them too much or you will have to recondition them.

The Timbecon needlfelt are quite thin, they work OK but they all need to be conditioned because they all release lots of fine dust for some time unless this is done. This means putting a basket of sawdust in the collection bag and the DC outside and running it for a while. The thicker Carbatech ones condition in about 20 minutes whereas the thin Timbecon ones take a couple of hours.

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I live in a pretty densely populated part of Sydney, so the DC is going to be inside for now. I know this is not ideal. The only upside is that the main machines that the DC will service - saw and planner/thicknesser will be beside the machine, so no need for long runs of ducting.

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Couldn't be any worse than where I live (1 mile in a straight line from the CBD) and a very fussy over the back neighbour with his pool alongside the back fence. Remember the fine dust that comes out is invisible so no one will notice it especially because inner cities are already relatively dusty places. The biggest issue is noise but look on the forum for ways members have built acoustic suppression enclosures. You can always enclose the DC inside the workshop in an air tight enclosure and vent the enclosure outside.

If you plan to keep the DC inside teh shed, in that case I'd be looking to add forced ventilation otherwise your fine dust levels will go up and up. This does the same thing as venting or locating the DC outside - ie extracts fine dust from the shed. There is no way to capture and retain all the fine all inside a shed, short of using large and very expensive HEPA filtration.

Scott, you may never have a better time to install the pipework for a fixed dusty than when you regain possession of an empty shed. A central pipe with a fishbone arrangement servicing various work stations would suffice. I spent years moving a portable dusty from machine to machine until it became a PITA. With fixed ducting, your second hand dusty could then be connected to the system and blast gates installed without having to disconnect and reconnect repeatedly.

It's worth thinking about.

mick

Thanks Bob and Mick.

Bob, I will order a couple of those bags from Carbatec. I have never heard about 'conditioning' them, but I understand the principle and will do that. This morning, I put aside a big bag of the stuff I pulled out of the machine to use. (The rest is being collected gradually by people with chooks and gardens.)

I'm leaning toward building an enclosure in the shed to house the DC and vent it outside. I have a question on venting to the outside. Attached is a photo of the corner of the space where the DC will sit. You can see a wall vent. I'm assuming this would not be sufficient for the volume of air entering the enclosure? What if I took out the vent? Would this facilitate sufficient air flow to the outside?

Mick, when you come over in early July we'll talk fixed ducting.

Attachment 494077

Attachment 494076

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Originally Posted by scottbr

Mick, when you come over in early July we'll talk fixed ducting.Attachment 494076

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I look forward to it.

mick

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Originally Posted by scottbr

Thanks Bob and Mick.

Bob, I will order a couple of those bags from Carbatec. I have never heard about 'conditioning' them, but I understand the principle and will do that. This morning, I put aside a big bag of the stuff I pulled out of the machine to use. (The rest is being collected gradually by people with chooks and gardens.)

I'm leaning toward building an enclosure in the shed to house the DC and vent it outside. I have a question on venting to the outside. Attached is a photo of the corner of the space where the DC will sit. You can see a wall vent. I'm assuming this would not be sufficient for the volume of air entering the enclosure? What if I took out the vent? Would this facilitate sufficient air flow to the outside?

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Ideally the bigger the better for the vent cross section.
However if you vent directly outside through a large vent then considerable noise may escape as well.
To counteract that some sort of "S" or "double S" muffler/baffle box is needed to reduce noise transfer - if the path is is too tortuous or too small it will generate back pressure and reduce flow.
So now were talking a bigger vent to cope with the baffle box.
I'd say it needs to be at least as large as the cross section of your main ducting trunk line but if you can get it 2x that cross section it will be better.

I use 4x the cross sectional area of my 6" trunk line - the net effect is about a 1% loss in pressure. Halving the cross section will increase the back pressure to more than 2%.

A technical post about all this is available here
https://www.woodworkforums.com/f271/.../2#post2127617

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Originally Posted by BobL

Ideally the bigger the better for the vent cross section.
However if you vent directly outside through a large vent then considerable noise may escape as well.
To counteract that some sort of "S" or "double S" muffler/baffle box is needed to reduce noise transfer - if the path is is too tortuous or too small it will generate back pressure and reduce flow.
So now were talking a bigger vent to cope with the baffle box.
I'd say it needs to be at least as large as the cross section of your main ducting trunk line but if you can get it 2x that cross section it will be better.

I use 4x the cross sectional area of my 6" trunk line - the net effect is about a 1% loss in pressure. Halving the cross section will increase the back pressure to more than 2%.

A technical post about all this is available here
https://www.woodworkforums.com/f271/.../2#post2127617

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I have read that technical post a few times, Bob, and understand a tiny bit more each time. I'll hit peak understanding before grasping all of it, though.

So in layman's terms, the hole in the wall should be at least the size of the largest fixed duct. But bigger would be better. If I remove that vent, the resulting hole will be more than the size of a 6" duct. One day that building will go back to being a residential space, so I'm not keen on enlarging the hole. If I just remove the vent, I can just put one back down the track. Easy.

Now, what if I was to remove that vent and install a bathroom exhaust fan in its place? It would turn on when the DC does. So rather than a passive vent, it is a powered one. What do you think?

Scott

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Originally Posted by scottbr

I have read that technical post a few times, Bob, and understand a tiny bit more each time. I'll hit peak understanding before grasping all of it, though.

So in layman's terms, the hole in the wall should be at least the size of the largest fixed duct. But bigger would be better. If I remove that vent, the resulting hole will be more than the size of a 6" duct. One day that building will go back to being a residential space, so I'm not keen on enlarging the hole. If I just remove the vent, I can just put one back down the track. Easy.

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:2tsup:

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Now, what if I was to remove that vent and install a bathroom exhaust fan in its place? It would turn on when the DC does. So rather than a passive vent, it is a powered one. What do you think?

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Most bathroom fans move between 200 and 400 CFM which is not going to be enough.
You'd be better off putting the DC in an enclosure and venting the enclosure through that hole in the wall - that DC should pull 1200 CFM through an unrestricted 6" duct so would be be a lot better at venting fine dust from teh workspace.