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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
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    Sydney
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    Default I'm thinking about starting a share shed in Sydney's inner west

    I have a building in my backyard that I have long wanted to turn into a shed. The dimensions are 6.5 x 11 metres.
    It’s time – or it will be at the end of this year. I’ll be easing into part time work at the end of the year so I can spend more time at home. I already have two smaller sheds (3 x 5 each) but I out grew them long ago.
    So why a ‘share shed’? My wife has a ceramics studio next door to this building and she has created a community there. I want to do the same. Communities are important when people move into retirement.
    Right now, I’m doing research and getting a few ducks in a row.
    The shed will have mid range machines, enough hand tools, a decent DC system and benches to accommodate 4 users at any one time. I will be seeking advice down the track on machines, DC etc.
    Right now, it’s the business model I am ruminating on because that will impact on what goes into the shed and how I arrange it.
    That building is currently on Airbnb as accomodation (see photos) and brings in around $15K per year in rent, so I need the shed to bring in some revenue to justify the exercise.
    I would welcome your thoughts.

    1. From what I can see, there are five people in Sydney who run proper courses on woodwork. Three of them are in my suburb – Marrickville – and I know two of them. Courses are where the money is and they run a succession of courses with increasing levels of difficulty. When people finish the suite of courses, there is an option for them to attend and work on their own projects, but space/time would be limited. I suspect there are people who finish all the courses and find it is not possible for them to keep dropping in and making stuff. What do you think people who know what they are doing would pay per half day (4 hours) and per full day to have access to a decent shed? Or would a per week cost be better and people can book in when they want to attend?
    2. Then there are the local occasional users who have a project and no space, no tools and little knowledge. There are increasing numbers of people moving into apartments who are not able to do any DIY stuff. These people would require more attention, but that’s okay. I wonder what they would pay?
    3. Down the track, I might do classes for young teens and perhaps parent and child – that was suggested to me by a local mum. A lifetime ago I taught high school, so I could do this well.
    4. There are other user groups I have thought of, but that’s enough for now. For casual users, there will be a booking system (my wife uses that for her studio) to limit the number of people at any one time to 4.


    It's all pretty fluid at the moment and there would be much I have not thought about. And yes, there will be problems and disappointments. I would welcome your collective thoughts.
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  3. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Perth
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    Default

    Insurance.

  4. #3
    rrich Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    Insurance.
    I had thought about doing that at one time. I asked a friend who was an insurance agent what I needed. His answer was basically, Don't because you can't afford it and you don't want to lose the house. I didn't.

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
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    Sydney
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    Default

    we've been thru some of the pros/cons before in the original thread Community Wood Workshop/Shed Sydney Area? so rehashing the why this is a bad idea seems like, well, a waste. Sounds like Scott has somewhat made up his mind and is after prompts on how a business plan might look.

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
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    Sydney
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    508

    Default

    Yep, insurance will be a given. But I think I will be able to solve it. We already have some insurance because onsite there is a working ceramics studio with people attending workshops. There would obviously need to be additional cover.

  7. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
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    Sydney
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    Default

    Yep, Scott is still planning to do this and has done more thinking since last October. When people do a business plan, they do a fair bit of research - I've done a few business plans. This thread is unashamedly part of that research. I'm curious about what people would pay for access to that sort of space. Poundy if you think this discussion is 'a waste', feel free to not participate.

  8. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
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    back in Alberta for a while
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    68
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    12,006

    Default

    Obtaining insurance, while protecting the asset which is your house, will be a biggie.

    My initial thoughts are that anyone injured in your shed WILL sue you for damages. The risk can be minimised somewhat though either
    1. making the shed a hand tool only space.
    2. investing in a saw stop (TM), or, if it's available in Australia, the Bosch Reaxx (TM) saw.

    To completely "protect" your house, I think the shed would need to be located on a separate title held in a company name, or at the very least rented to an arm's length entity. A separate title is perhaps something that is not that easy to achieve in Marrickville.


    Thinking of the woodworking courses I've done in the past, only the instructor could operate powered machinery. Are you prepared to put that level of effort into getting your shed off the ground?
    $15,000 per year as an Airbnb (which is a mostly static investment) would have to equate to something like $30,000 per year to cover your time preparing material for classes.
    Assuming a 40 week "year", that would work out at $750 per week.
    Assuming classes 2 nights per week, and 3 students per class -- that works out at about $130 per session. More students would lower the per session cost somewhat, but at the expense of your ability to do your own thing.
    regards from Alberta, Canada

    ian

  9. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Sydney
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    Default

    Thanks for your considered thoughts, Ian.
    A quick response because I have to dash out now.
    Certainly for people with no experience, the machines will be off limits. I had a chat recently to a graduate of the Sturt School down south. People like that I would be more comfortable with if they used the machines. Yes, the saw will be a Saw Stop.
    A separate title would be too difficult as you surmise, but there could be arms length arrangements. I know an abundance of lawyers, but most work in entertainment or land rights. They will know people who can advise me.
    Yes, Airbnb is passive income, but part of my aim is to have an interest in my semi retirement and surround myself with like minded people.

  10. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Riverhills, Brisbane
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    64
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    1,216

    Default

    My workshop is in an Industrial Unit which is on it's own title. I considered this about 10 years ago but when I looked at insurance it was prohibitive. I even have had relatives who have asked to use my shed due to the extra room and machinery but I have refused as I don't want to lose the Unit if they cut their hand off. If a visitor comes to the large roller door while I am working, I ask them to NOT come inside as the Common Property outside where they are standing is covered by Public Liability but I am not. Insurance is a costly and very important. Do not think for one moment that any of the people that come on your property and say "I wouldn't sue you" will keep that promise if they mangle their fingers even due to their own stupidity.

  11. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
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    Nsw
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    Default

    Isn’t it a shame that society is at a stage where simple pleasures like this are no longer viable due to litigation/insurance

    I hope you find a viable solution

  12. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
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    Sydney Upper North Shore
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    Default

    Maybe look at how Mens Sheds operate?. Maybe totally unrelated but everyone pays a yearly fee, everyone uses the equipment after demonstrating that they are “competent” .
    Ages are from preteens to whatever, so there is no real age limit.
    Then again, it’s not a private, money making enterprise.

  13. #12
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    Nov 2018
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    Newcastle
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    Default

    Might be worth talking to Peter of Artisans on the Hill - he has a similar setup of home/accomodation/Gallery/arts & woodwork school, and a workshop which you can pay to use.

  14. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
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    Elizabeth Bay / Oberon NSW
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    Scott,

    I think you need to obtain firm quotes for insurance and other fixed and variable costs to get a good grip on your annual overheads. Then you can decide if the market will accept whatever hourly rates are needed to remain solvent.

    After that, you can decide whether you want to run a woodworking school or simply rent bench space with machine usage on a scramble basis. Any machine sharing arrangement will inevitably create conflicts.

    I suspect the simplest and cheapest arrangement would involve renting space for people to equip with their own equipment so you have little or no duty of care.

    mick

  15. #14
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
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    SE Melb
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scottbr View Post
    A separate title would be too difficult as you surmise, but there could be arms-length arrangements. I know an abundance of lawyers, but most work in entertainment or land rights. They will know people who can advise me.
    I think the workaround for this issue is to form a limited liability company which would sign a lease with the owner of the property (you) for a long term use of the room. The company will be responsible for the complete fitting out, getting electrical connections and procuring of equipment to start this workshop. Of course, the company might have a problem getting the required permits because of noise pullution etc. But assuming you can obtain the correct licenses, and get the insurance to cover your company, then you are good to go. Usually, the cost of doing so becomes too much to proceed with the idea further.

  16. #15
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    Feb 2006
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    Perth
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lappa View Post
    Maybe look at how Mens Sheds operate?. Maybe totally unrelated but everyone pays a yearly fee, everyone uses the equipment after demonstrating that they are “competent” .
    Ages are from preteens to whatever, so there is no real age limit.
    Then again, it’s not a private, money making enterprise.
    They also get special insurance deals through the association.

    Quote Originally Posted by scottbr View Post
    . . . . . and surround myself with like minded people.
    This could be trickier than it sounds but good luck anyway.

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