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  1. #31
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    Reviving this old thread! HAHA!

    My father is a German trained "Tischler Meister" which translated is a Master Cabinetmaker. It is a formal qualification. He started his apprenticeship in around 1962/1963 at a traditional joinery, and the way the whole training system was still set up was to maximise the education of the youngsters rather than just giving them the S*it kicker jobs to maximize profits, as it too commonly is now.
    He told me that the two apprentices had to arrive an hour before all the tradesmen to set up, sharpen all the hand tools etc, and that they were required to stay back at the end of the day to clean up after the tradesmen. The first year they wernt allowed to touch any power tools, and were basically spending 7-8 hours a day sawing (with the bow saw), chiseling and sharpening. To learn dovetailing, the two apprentices were given the task of producing nearly 200 drawers for an apothecary/chemist shop fitout. The master would inspect their consistency by ensuring the drawers were randomly interchangeable.
    The apprenticeship finished with an practical exam where a "Gesellenstuck" was to be produced. He and a couple of other apprentices from other firms were sent to the local town hall where they had a workshop for 4 days. Each apprentice had to produce a small cabinet with doors, drawers etc to test a bunch of specific skills. The timber was rough milled at their own workplace and sent ahead of the apprentices. They were each given a bench and a small set of hand tools (google Ulmia tools, which were basically the standard set everyone had) and had to produce a cabinet. 2 old retired masters oversaw them in what my dad describes as "a little bit like Masterchef on TV, just without the cameras, fancy clothes and a lot dustier!". They were not only marked on the final product, but also how they conducted themselves. Apparently one of the apprentices just crumbled due to the time pressure. My father and another apprentice felt sorry for this young lad and the two helped him out, afterwards they were told that marks were deducted.

    After this, he was a qualified "Gesellen" which translates roughly to "Tradesman". Generally you then spend time at various workshops in a "Journeyman" few years, to pick up a wide palette of skills from various specialists in their field. For my dad, this period was about 4 years. One of the jobs he did, as a 22 year old working in a small 3 man joinery, was he was entrusted with an entire valuable flitch of veneer cut from a grotesque pine tree. It was owned by a wealthy timber merchant who wanted the entire front of his house veneered Anton Gerner style in a 360 degree panorama. Talk about baptism by fire....my old man successfully did so, doors, furniture, everything....made and veneered for this guy's house. It gave him a good reputation and he was head hunted by other bigger and well known joineries.

    Soon after, he applied to do his "Master" qualification, which at the time meant that he had to be assessed to even get accepted. He did, and long story short, it basically meant working full time as a cabinetmaker, but then spending 2 nights a week at nightschool and the Saturday too. Yes, you learn even more specialist techniques, but according to him it was an education in business, marketing, educating apprentices and advanced design (which you then would have your team of Gesellen produce).
    He then did the theoretical exam as well as produce a "Meisterstuck" which means "masterpiece". As my dad was not well off financially at the time, he couldnt afford nice timber to make his own cabinet, so he cut a deal with the local government where he would build an ornate door/windows/entranceway to a heritage building.
    Then he came out to Australia in 1973.....10 or 11 years after he first started his apprenticeship, eventually heading up the NGV conservation workshops. But thats another story for those interested..

    To him, Frank Wiesner is the most skilled cabinetmaker tradesman in Australia (there is a difference between a studio furniture maker and a tradesman, mainly that the latter is a workhorse) and when you ask Frank if he is a "Master" he laughs and humbly says "Oh I'm just an old tradesman. Just a humble Altgeselle!"

    My dad always maintained that the senior craftsmen or "Alt-Gesellen" (Old-tradesmen) were the most technically skilled and revered. A good Altgesellen could arc up at the Meister and say "No, what you're design demands is not possible!" and the Master would listen, because it was the Altgesellen who worked 8 hours a day at the bench and had 20-30 years under his belt.

    But in order to run a business or to train an apprentice/sign off on the papers for an apprentice you had to be a Master.


    I hope that helps to anyone still interested!

    Cheers,
    Siggy

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  3. #32
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    Great stuff Siggy. My grandfather was a Belgian Master Craftsman, some 110 years ago. Similar journey, and I still have a couple of the beech moulding planes he made for himself-albeit he would probably frown at the cherry soles I had to retrofit to close the mouths after 3 generations and a century of use!

    His skill level was sufficient that, on moving to the UK after WW1, he basically walked into becoming a pattern maker.

    Of note, I once tried to impress him by quoting ‘a bad workman blames his tools’, thinking the old man would nod approvingly at his grandson. His response has shaped my approach to tools ever since: he smiled at me and said, in his strong accent,

    “True, but a craftsman doesn’t start a job without the right tools...’

    The level of sheer time the old guys put in was extraordinary. He also had the ‘carpenter’s bump’, which he used to flex for me: with no power tools, a professional woodworker used to end up with a massive forearm bulge from using hand tools (I believe particularly screwdrivers and drills) day in, day out, for hours on end. Each time I’m forced to use a hand screwdriver because of space constraints, I reflect on the effort involved if every single screw had to be hand seated - and I think of my grandfather...

  4. #33
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    Good post and yes that was and possibly still is the European way of training tradesmen.

    My maternal grandfather was an English mater builder, did churches etc in the old dart.
    He set up in Chatswood on the Highway and he and my uncle did Bank fitouts etc.
    My paternal grandfather was a master, started on sailing ships, ended up blacklisted by the owners for kicking off the Master mariners assoc out here.
    Tuff old coot got himself off and rowed ashore with a burst appendix when a watchman on board in WW11.

    I don’t think we ever did quite this level of training out here however we did have a 5 year apprenticeship until the mid 60s.
    This went to 4 years about the same time high school went to 4 and 6.
    Possibly so you were out of your time by 21?

    As for screws we used Yankee pumps and braces.
    Just had to be careful with brass screws using a brace.
    Just as well rsi hadn’t been invented back then.
    H.
    Jimcracks for the rich and/or wealthy. (aka GKB '88)

  5. #34
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    [QUOTE]As for screws we used Yankee pumps[/QUOTE]

    Yes: I once heard that when the US sent their own tradies, for obvious reasons, to rebuild the US embassy in Moscow in the 50s, the Russian equivalents who were allowed on site would do anything to acquire yankee drivers, which were new to them...

  6. #35
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    Great post, Siggy.

    While I was at Sturt in 2002, the Woodage in Mittagong was building a huge warehouse. Employed on the job were a couple of journeymen. I'm not sure what their trades were or where in Europe they were from, but they wore bowler hats and vests. I remember their were conditions on their 'journeymanship'. They had to do a certain amount of travel, and I think they weren't supposed to pay for it themselves - may be wrong there.

    Years ago I met an old builder in Cairns who had been through a similar system in Switzerland. It was obviously a very comprehensive education system, covering all the practical aspects, as well as design of buildings and furniture, art and aesthetics, materials and business management.
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  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexS View Post
    Great post, Siggy.

    While I was at Sturt in 2002, the Woodage in Mittagong was building a huge warehouse. Employed on the job were a couple of journeymen. I'm not sure what their trades were or where in Europe they were from, but they wore bowler hats and vests. I remember their were conditions on their 'journeymanship'. They had to do a certain amount of travel, and I think they weren't supposed to pay for it themselves - may be wrong there.

    Years ago I met an old builder in Cairns who had been through a similar system in Switzerland. It was obviously a very comprehensive education system, covering all the practical aspects, as well as design of buildings and furniture, art and aesthetics, materials and business management.
    Hey Alex! this is awesome to hear.
    Yeah so what you would have seen, with their vests and flared corduroy pants are the "Zimmermann" or Carpenters. Those guys are the structural and finishing carpentry experts.

    They do a thing called the "Walz/Wandering years" is the rough translation, where they are required to basically travel with a knapsack with the minimal of belongings, and must spend a set amount of time at workplaces, logging everything in a book and traditionally they get a stamp/signoff from the local council to prove they were there and that they did a satisfactory job. Usually they "wander" around Europe not being allowed within a certain radius of their starting point/home. But yeah, as flights are cheaper and young Germans are good at picking up English, a lot travel overseas out here, Asia or the Americas.
    I think if they stay within the German speaking countries, a lot of their traditions are still upheld, such as they are allowed to walk into a pub, recite certain songs/statements that gets them a free meal, to drum up business and I believe if they rock up to a joinery and request work, the joinery is not allowed to turn them away. What wages and specific arrangements they get, I am not sure of. Perhaps some specifics were dependent on the region and guild rules.
    This is just how it was explained to me, based on what happened in the 1960's and 70's that my dad observed as he lived in a hostel of tradesmen the entire duration of his training.

    But I do know that it's like a fraternity and they wear their uniforms (as dorky as they look) with absolute pride. It's a bold statement to say "I'm well trained and know my stuff".


    I actually believe recently a German master qualified Zimmermann set up a business called Zimmermann-Oz. And he has a couple of German craftsman working for him. They do contemporary stuff too, its just that their level and eye for detail and construction techniques would perhaps surpass their peers here in Australia. I'd love to hire guys like that to do a renovation...if I had the money!

    When they have the world skills competitions, it's usually a lot of Germans and Swedes (and similar) that end up coming out on top. From what I heard from a friend who is a cabinetmaker in Germany, those Zimmermann have regional teams and coaches...like, they treat cutting joints as a sport and have specific exercises and drills to sharpen their skills as if it was football, "training" each week after work with coaches.

  8. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpdv View Post
    Great stuff Siggy. My grandfather was a Belgian Master Craftsman, some 110 years ago. Similar journey, and I still have a couple of the beech moulding planes he made for himself-albeit he would probably frown at the cherry soles I had to retrofit to close the mouths after 3 generations and a century of use!

    His skill level was sufficient that, on moving to the UK after WW1, he basically walked into becoming a pattern maker.

    Of note, I once tried to impress him by quoting ‘a bad workman blames his tools’, thinking the old man would nod approvingly at his grandson. His response has shaped my approach to tools ever since: he smiled at me and said, in his strong accent,

    “True, but a craftsman doesn’t start a job without the right tools...’

    The level of sheer time the old guys put in was extraordinary. He also had the ‘carpenter’s bump’, which he used to flex for me: with no power tools, a professional woodworker used to end up with a massive forearm bulge from using hand tools (I believe particularly screwdrivers and drills) day in, day out, for hours on end. Each time I’m forced to use a hand screwdriver because of space constraints, I reflect on the effort involved if every single screw had to be hand seated - and I think of my grandfather...

    Oh I fully believe it. One of the first things my dad asked me when I got back from Frank's workshop, was "how is the asymmetry in his shoulders?" because those old timers did so much hand planing, their dominant arm and shoulder was noticeably more muscular.

    Yeah, that is wonderful how he made his own planes. I think that complete training really allowed them to produce tools, quickly and efficiently for specific jobs they had.
    Your grandfather's humor/attitude is so funny, and similar to that of my dad. Perhaps it was in the joiner's repertoire to fire back if anyone questioned their price or quality.
    I remember an elderly friend was over, and he was quite an accomplished amateur woodworker, the kind who has an understanding enough wife and kids to allow him to spend an hour or two each evening in the workshop. He got on a sort of high horse after reading a book on gilding and gesso work and wanted to impress my old man (who was the carver and guilder at the NGV for a decade and a half) with a few statements questioning techniques.
    The old man just said "Aha, my friend let us talk about this in the afterlife over a beer, because in 50 years from now you will have enough evening hours of gilding to finish your apprenticeship". I was not immune to it as I recall working with him and answering the phone, my friend was on the other end of the phone and wanted to catch up. Perhaps 10 minutes later I hung up. My old man quipped back at me "Now you must work harder because we have to knock off early as you used up so much workshop oxygen flapping your gums".


    Sadly, according to a friend who is a "master" qualified cabinetmaker in Germany, she admits that the training is no where near as stringent or thorough as it used to be. More and more younger folks are tempted to pursue academia in search of a more balanced and comfortable lifestyle. And so she admitted that to keep people keen and not abolish the training system all together, standards have been lowered and the hardcore strict attitude has eased. Don't get me wrong, they are still highly qualified. One only has to look at the yearly publications they release that showcase the Gesellenstuck and Meisterstuck pieces of furniture that the graduates must produce to see how skilled they are.
    They are usually very very inventive and utilize advanced techniques and processes, and as a part of it I believe they have to provide a thorough justification of their design (not just wax lyrical about it) and a full suite of complete drawings.

    I believe the Danes currently have a very very good modern system too, perhaps better than the Germans. I've seen photos from friends of trade schools with machine halls lined with the latest Martin equipment. Quite literally a dozen of the most recent Martin jointers, planers, table saws etc. And students being sharply dressed and the workshops organized like a military operation.
    They still have a ceremony hosted by the royal family that awards the high achievers with medals from the Queen herself.
    How wonderful!


    Cheers,
    Siggy
    Our training system here could still very much learn from it.

  9. #38
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    Interesting that you mention the Danes. I've done bit of research on a danish carpenter/cabinetmaker, Heinrich/Herman Neilsen, who worked in far north Queensland from 1893-1946. I started this research because my daughter has a jewellery box made by him, originally bought for my grandmother by my father, probably in about 1930.
    As I say, he came to Australia in 1893, but his letterhead shows him as having worked in "London, Paris, Copenhagen", so I wonder if this was part of his 'wandering years'. I was curious as to how such a skilled craftsman came to be working in such a remote area of Australia, but I guess the Palmer River gold rushes were on. He is known to have built the R.C. church at Port Douglas and the Bishop's throne at St. Monica's in Cairns, as well as many other homes and public buildings, but I have been unable to find out anything about him prior to his arrival.

    Here are some pictures of some of his work. My daughter has the small oval box with detailed inlay.
    Book box.jpg

    Screen Shot 2021-07-01 at 5.39.28 pm.jpg

    Screen Shot 2021-07-01 at 5.41.19 pm.png

    oval box cedar.jpg
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    Alex wow! Thank you for sharing that!!!

    That is seriously exciting and interesting to know that a Danish cabinetmaker was up there in far North Queensland! I'm going to guess that he was perhaps past the "wandering" years, because at that time it would have cost a small fortune for him to relocate and tradesmen in the wandering years were usually younger and trying to still pick up skills and establish a reputation. That work looks absolutely first class! I wouldnt be surprised if he came out with the intent of starting a business and training/educating younger tradesmen. But yeah, it could have been that he did travel within Europe and used that in his trademark.

    It really is fascinating, I mean now we have computers and TV ads showing us what it is like on the opposite side of the globe, but back then perhaps they had perhaps at most a crappy lithograph of a stylized landscape to go off......he must have had the adventurous heart of a pioneer. I will have to research more into this guy, because he would have one heck of a story to tell!

    Have you heard of Robert Dunlop who operated out of Brisbane? He was close friends with Frank Wiesner, being perhaps 10 years older than Frank.
    He apprenticed in Brisbane under a chap called Charles Kuffer who was a Swiss "Meister". Frank would tell me how Robert was worth more than his weight in gold at the bench because Charles trained him so hard and well.
    So there we have it, an Aussie who was as Occa as the Birdsville pub, with a strong bit of continental flavor! I know Robert was so much influenced by Charles, that he even imported Ulmia tools (wooden horned planes, bow/frame saws etc).
    I couldnt find out much on Charles Kuffer, except that he was highly intelligent, and so demanding upon his apprentices that Robert started in the mid/late 1930s and was the only one that made the full distance, and there were 12 others that simply gave up because it was so strict. Apparently he was such a clever guy he designed a house for himself that was mounted on a turntable and could be rotated to get just the right amount of sunshine throughout the day. The story goes that he went to have his drawings inspected and signed off by the relevant authorities, and when he did they thought he was a looney. In his typical blunt fashion he apparently declared that they were stupid and not ready for his idea, stormed out, packed his bags and was on a boat back to his beloved Switzerland.

    Man, it must have been tough working for blokes like that. But you'd be one hell of a tradesman afterwards.

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    Thanks Siggy, Neilsen was 35 when he arrived in Port Douglas, with a wife and2 children. After a couple of years his wife returned to Denmark with the children. He would have been well past his wandering years.

    I haven't heard of Dunlop or Kuffer, but had the privilege of meeting Frank Weisner at Bungendore some years ago during a studio furniture exhibition. His work, both design and fabrication, was amazing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexS View Post
    Thanks Siggy, Neilsen was 35 when he arrived in Port Douglas, with a wife and2 children. After a couple of years his wife returned to Denmark with the children. He would have been well past his wandering years.

    I haven't heard of Dunlop or Kuffer, but had the privilege of meeting Frank Weisner at Bungendore some years ago during a studio furniture exhibition. His work, both design and fabrication, was amazing.

    Hey Alex,

    Thanks heaps for that. I may be able to start digging/learning about this guy. Would you have any more photos of his wonderful work? You know, its interesting, just those boxes and smaller pieces that you put the photos up of. We have many makers using those veneers and timbers, but the way he brought them together (I guess he had a knack for design) in such a novel and simple way, yet so effectively is really a thing of beauty.

    Robert Dunlop passed away perhaps around 9 or 10 years ago. He was with Kuffer around 1937 or so, before being drafted for WW2 after his apprenticeship. I think Wood Review once did an article on Robert. The details were exactly as Frank told me over several meals. Frank is probably the last guy around in Australia (my old man too perhaps) whom had the old fashioned continental strict training. Frank told me they didnt even have an electric drill as his master's workshop was in bombed out Berlin in 1948. I know he must be atleast the most experienced joiner/cabinetmaker out there, as at 88 years of age, he still is at work 6 days a week in his workshop.

    It would be fantastic if there were others still around that simply have flown under the radar.


    You may be interested to know that I was asked by Wood Review to write an article on Frank and one too on my father. I have written the article on Frank, pending photos. See, my camera phone (an iPhone 12, which is pretty darned decent) went bananas, and instead of taking photos it triggered an emergency SOS signal, so I had to stop using it as a camera. I had a 35mm film camera with me which i wanted to experiment with some various black and white film and slide film taking nature photographs. Key word there was experiment. Anyway, I had to resort to using the film camera to take photos of Frank. As I have near zero experience with slide film and the black and white film was a 3200ISO high speed film, the photos were deemed not suitable for print.
    He is such a gentleman, and our similarities in personalities and approach allowed us to click together and work harmoniously at once. I remarked to him "Frank, if I was born 40 years earlier and had met you in the 1970s, we would have surely become the best of mates and worked together" and he agreed. It was easy to write on Frank, and a true pleasure.
    His approach is pragmatic and he knows Queensland timbers like no one else that I know. I am aware of timber merchants and academics who have a very deep and thorough knowledge of timbers and recognizing them, but Frank actually has the skills to also understand and exploit their mechanical and aesthetic properties to the maximum through all sorts of old world joinery. As an engineer, I can clearly state that Frank thinks like an engineer and has a more systematic and critical way of thinking than my peers.

    The article I am writing on my father is tricky, because I don't want to show any bias. As a cabinetmaker and in his professional capacity he was extremely harsh on me. And I fully respect that he was treating me the way his master treated him. But putting that into words and not sounding like a w&nker is the difficult bit. But I believe a lot of people would be shocked to realize that a man of his particular skill set (it's different to Frank's skillset) was living right under their noses in Metro Melbourne where there would have been a huge market for him. Unfortunately he never did very well as he had a very very blunt (almost rude) manner to him and would never understand the idea of mingling and talking to people as it would mean leaving his beloved workshop and tools.
    If you're in Melbourne, all you have to do is go to the NGV Melbourne and the most ornate frames produced within the NGV were off his workbench as a one man show. Selection of timber, use of traditional hand tools, carving, compo, gesso, guilding and finishing by a single lone (hard to talk to) German. I visit the workshops recently, and the good folks working there maintain a very high level of respect for him and its not just their words but also in their actions, the workshop is still set up with his handwritten labels on the cocoa tins that he got from a Bavarian baker who worked at the art centre/gallery kitchens, all containing specific pigments, ingredients and specialist tools. His original toolcabinet that he built to house the Ulmia tools he bought still hangs on the wall and the workbench that he built is still there and used in photographs. He could walk right back into that workshop and pick up right where he left off some 25 years ago. He also has some fantastic stories, such as when he was tasked with transporting to Berlin and guarding Picasso's "Weeping Woman" right after it was stolen and recovered.

    I am afraid that a lot of the up and coming furniture makers in my generation will miss out on this knowledge transfer and the understanding of the caliber of craftsmanship folks like these guys had. We all know the mythical status of Japanese woodworking, but the western world has started to succumb to marketing, the latest tool gadgetry and gradual simplification of designs which leads to simplification/loss of skills.

    I try and explain to folks that the reason why Danish midcentury furniture is so good, is because the guys who created it had the complete full skillset to do much more complicated things, which they distilled into a simple design. Just like asking Gordon Ramsey to cook you a scrambled egg - it will be unbelievable as he is distilling all that skill into one simple thing.
    To come in with the view that because the forms are simple, one can be trained in a very short time to make such designs is the wrong approach (but its the easier and common approach). Gosh I hope that I don't offend anyone by saying that!


    Siggy

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    Hi Siggy, I'll send you a PM with the only other photo I have of a piece of his furniture, and also some a clipping. I think most of his boxes were made after he "retired". I had hoped to write an article for AWR about him, and even had a lady who specialises in tracing the background of Danish immigrants of the 19th & early 20th centuries try to find out where he trained, but she was unable to do so.
    Nick Teply is a German-trained woodworker who is probably as close as you'll get to a classically trained young(ish) woodworker. It's worth searching for his work.
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    I can't send a PM with images, so here is the information I have about him.

    Book box 2.jpg

    IMG_0953.jpg

    Nielsen 70th.jpg

    Nielsen Mossman Church.jpg

    Screen Shot 2021-07-02 at 9.23.38 pm.jpg
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexS View Post
    I can't send a PM with images, so here is the information I have about him.

    Book box 2.jpg

    IMG_0953.jpg

    Nielsen 70th.jpg

    Nielsen Mossman Church.jpg

    Screen Shot 2021-07-02 at 9.23.38 pm.jpg

    Alex thank you so much for that. I'll try dig around for more information. Perhaps this may uncover some other top notch craftsmen whom were operating below the radar! (I really do hope so!)



    Cheers,
    Siggy

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