Thread: master woodworkers guild?

If this would be a way to ensure knowledge, skills and methods are passed on and not lost, then I'd be all for it!!!

Cheers
Wendy

Who shall be the gate keepers; who is a master craftsman and who is not? A body of your peers, who suffer from the problem of legitimization; why? because their authority is self appointed. This only serves to create two groups of those who are with the in crowd and those that are part of the out crowd.

All kinds of questions can be raised as to what defines a masters skills. Can he not be a master because he uses a nail gun? Is he still a master craftsman if you uses a Festool Domino, or what about ply and MDF, or a CNC machine, or a chisel. What about mediums shall we exclude those who do not work in glass, wood, steel, plastic, or styrofoam. Who makes these choices, or do we simple not exclude anyone, which then castrates the very function of any such group.

Krenov once said that a master craftsman's labour in isolation and have very little contact with the general public. Krenov suggested that popularity with consumers (i.e. the more people who consume his product) by its very nature is exclusionary to quality in a direct inverse relationship. It is reason to say that an individual who was truly a master craftsman's would have little time for the inclinations for self grandiosity of formal bodies of registration that seek far to often advance their own agendas by using the name of a select core masters to the benefit of the general mob of the lesser.

I have only ever meet two masters of their art, both have showed little interest in registering bodies because as one put it without a hint of ego "that they needed him more then he needed them" in so far as to validate themselves as masters.

The nature of the craftsman's work is a private affair, if he or she wishes to pass on what they know to a student then the student will appear many however feel a great dis-ease as to the notion of taking on an apprentice.

It has been told that techniques can be taught but skill cannot be learned only discovered and to this end the great teacher teaches not the tricks of the trade however seeks to impart the principles and feelings of the craft upon his students.

I am full support of a Guild-like approach to things, though am also concerned that the criteria will preclude many from ever being able to join - in addition, I guess I wonder what the group's motivation would be, other than to identify masters for their own ends, which doesn't really foster a guild-like atmosphere in my opinion.

I have met a few master craftspeople in my time and I concluded a couple of things:

1. I will never be one
2. Their work though beautiful, seemed exorbitantly expensive and untouchable
3. Their apparent arrogance was off-putting
4. They seemed somewhat 'remote'

I must confess that my opinions are strongly governed by my belief that furniture should be used every day and should wear in, not out. Also, while I saw real technical skill in my subjects' workmanship (personship....gawd, when does it end!!?? ) many of the pieces were to me, impractical and lacking in design finesse.

Anyway, I am rambling yet again - guess I am saying that I would prefer to see a true guild emerge that has as its central philosophy, something akin to "the surgeon's edict" of "see one, do one, teach one" where aspirants and adherents meet as contemporaries and share in their love of making things well....and where leadership is evident in the quality of the teaching and resultant furniture.

end of sermon 34522 for the day! Apologies if I offend.......

guys , i think you may be to deep in thought here... my main concern is the loss of traditional design and building skills used on timber houses in australia and the ability of carpentersto be able to build the entire project in wood, eg. stairs kitchens, doors and windows etc.... i have not come across this as of yet and am disappointed by some people out their saying they specialize in so called qlder restorations..... going to bunnings and buying laser cut brackets and subbying out stair cases is not a specialist skill

Its probably viable to establish a guild.

I suggest following a format similar to the UK as a starting point.

But I envisage that it will become an elitist group aimed at self gratification and status symbolism. (Much along the lines of the high IQ societies who are avoided by true genuises like the plague))

A number of true masters in their chosen field just won't bother as they couldn't be stuffed being involved with status climbers.
They'd much rather get on practising their craft.

Now, this is one form of arrogance.

The more insidious arrogance will come from the guild members.

I'm arrogant enough not to bother joining a guild.

MY NEXT RANT FOLLOWS ......I hear you loud and clear - I was on a different tack from that. If I am understanding correctly, you are lamenting the loss of traditional woodworking skills associated with those beautiful (looking) homes of a bygone era. Me too, though I don't see CNC's and laser cutters as bad things at all .... merely the lack of variety. To me, a nice design is a nice design is a nice design .... it's the near-total LOSS of diversity that I am saddened by. A laser cutter can turn out beautiful fretworks super-fast, making the laborious bit a breeze .... the issue here I believe is that business owners adopt only a manufacturing mindset and do not blend it with a design mentality. The result? A loss of choice and a lack of real design coefficient, due to seeing good design as an expense not an investment. Staircases are a super specialist craft, though again, a stunning result can be achieved by design.... there are a million computer programs for calculating riser-tread-configurations, and I don't believe it is necessary to have to turn all the balusters by hand to get a great outcome ... what seems to happen is that we equate mechanisation with poor results - for me, it is poor thinking that produces poor results. I love drawing plans by hand, but AutoCad and Photoshop are both sent from heaven as far as I am concerned. I am in the preliminary stages of designing a shed for our place, so I can make more stuff and have young people over to learn how to make things. If I had to draw this by hand, I would never get it done ... I still think the result will be a good one. There will be joist hangers and steel used ... and that door is a sectional roller door - just made to look like barn doors - my poorly made point is that a bad outcome is more the result of attitude and poor design & skill..... but mainly poor attitude. A guild that fosters a better, more thoughtful/respectful approach to making and fixing things .... that's interesting.

Originally Posted by echnidna

Its probably viable to establish a guild.
(Much along the lines of the high IQ societies who are avoided by true genuises like the plague))

This of course, is the very reason I am not in MENSA!

the purpose of establishing a guild is to provide a benchmark for the consumers and potential clients of a level of quality available to them, not to establish a class system at all. there are good and bad in every field.... as hopefully you already know.

Though If you consider just the building trades a guild is likely a total waste of time.

Market forces would generally prevent a Craftsman from building houses.
As he would have to compete financially against tradesman who buy and install components.

I'd love to build a house (or 2) as a craftsman, but who could afford to pay me a fair and reasonable amount for my time and skills.

Originally Posted by seriph1

This of course, is the very reason I am not in MENSA!

Likewise

and also why I'm unlikely to join a guild

<dl><dt>PLEASE ACCEPT MY RESIGNATION. I DON'T WANT TO BELONG TO ANY CLUB THAT WILL ACCEPT ME AS A MEMBER.</dt><dd class="author">Groucho Marx
US comedian with Marx Brothers (1890 - 1977)</dd></dl>

researching what you are about to work on is not done by anyone , well hardly anyone anymore, knowing what was being designed and used at that particular point in time is essential to seemless integrated work .i agree with the use of modern machinery, although i am yet to see a laser cut piece of fretwork without burnt rounds in the corners and one that can be cut as neatly and economically as by hand or bandsaw......

in reply to echidna.... you say no one can afford your time.... was your first car a ferrari... these levels a quality are not exactly aimed at the frist home buyer, as i have never restored a house for a first home buyer.....

Do you mean a Masters Guild like the Master Builders Association?