Thread: Natural finishing oils - no dangerous chemicals??

You're not mentioning application but I assume its for furniture of some kind?

i am not keen on chemicals and like to steer clear of them!

Firstly ALL finishes are made of chemicals and so are people

Some care may need to be taken with oils like olive and coconut and some seed oils that can go rancid and smell unpleasant but even then they are not really toxic to touch.
Shelf life may be long but that is in a sealed container, when exposed on a large surface to air they can go rancid in weeks.

Oils like Flax (Linseed) polymerise (form polymers and harden) and make good harder wearing finishes.
Canola goes rancid well before it polymerises.

Natural Oils that are considered toxic include camphor, peppermint, wintergreen, sandalwood, sage, lavender, clove, cinnamon, tea tree, eucalyptus, and bergamot.
However they are really only toxic if taken internally or on the skin in sufficiently large enough quantities. If they were to be used on furniture (although I don't know why one would use these expensive oils this way) the amount one would come into contact with (especially internally) is very small because once dry so little active oil remains on the surface of timber.

It also depends what you mean by toxic.
Lemon oil is a very good example.
Taken orally it may cause a few problems yet it remains the oil of choice for guitar fret boards because so little of it remains on the surface.

FWIW Pure mineral oil is relatively non-toxic as it goes straight through the body.
OTOH used motor oil is know to be toxic

There are very few finishes sold these days that are toxic.
Products like Creosote (extracted from wood) are no longer available and I wonder how many if any toxic finishes remain readily available.
Even two pack epoxy floor sealer which is contains cyano compounds when wet dries to a non toxic finish.

Originally Posted by BobL

You're not mentioning application but I assume its for furniture of some kind?

Sorry Bob, yes furniture.

When i say toxic, i mean like cancer causing or chemicals that are known to cause organ issue or somehow put your health in danger.

i am not so concerned with the dried finish, i preferably do not want to touch these chemicals when applying at the end of the build etc... i know i can just wear gloves, masks etc... but i would prefer to just stay clear and not concern myself with them.


i don't mind if i need to re-coat more often.



Regards
Ben

I use Livos Kunos oil for my boxes & furniture, and cut it 50/50 with Bio-thinners. Both are available from http://Eco at Home.

Originally Posted by Ben6

Sorry Bob, yes furniture.

When i say toxic, i mean like cancer causing or chemicals that are known to cause organ issue or somehow put your health in danger.

i am not so concerned with the dried finish, i preferably do not want to touch these chemicals when applying at the end of the build etc... i know i can just wear gloves, masks etc... but i would prefer to just stay clear and not concern myself with them.

Sure I understand.
If you have concerns then using an eco finish is probably the way to do

But just because something is natural doesn't mean it cannot cause problems.
Because of the greater unseen exposure I'd be worried more about natural components in fine wood dust than exposure to commercially available finishes.

I'd be worried more about natural components in fine wood dust than exposure to commercially available finishes.

+1.

Originally Posted by BobL

Because of the greater unseen exposure I'd be worried more about natural components in fine wood dust than exposure to commercially available finishes.

Whilst I agree with BobL's advice it is important to consider the potential harm and risks to the maker and end user in the context of their application to the item, how they are handled and stored, and their properties not only when "dry" but in all phases of their use, and potential to cause cumulative toxicity - heavy metals, isocyanates etc. Potential harm.

A very wide range of products meet the US FDA "food safe" criteria when applied in accordance with the technical advices given, however that does not mean that they are "safe" in all phases of their use. A substantial spill of an "eco oil" over your body could be quite harmful, not a likely or typical event, but a possible one at that. Repeated exposures to solvents and isocyanates is known to be harmful on various levels. Other products are banned because of proven strong links to potential harm in typical situations - lead paint on children's toys.

However repeated exposure to a properly "cured" and "appropriate" finish on domestic goods and furniture has a low probability of causing harm to most people, but that does not mean that it is safe for all people. There just may be that one person who is highly sensitive or allergic to a nut oil, or even perhaps Kunos Oil etc.

All eco oils use a solvent or carrier of some type. Even shellac which is one of the safest finishes about relies upon metho or DNA as a solvent. Metho whilst a relatively "safe" solvent does present risks of causing harm through inhalation, skin contact, and flammability etc. So it becomes a matter of degrees of risk / potential harm, what is acceptable to the maker and end user and what is a real risk or what is a perceived risk and your tolerance to risk.

Originally Posted by Mobyturns

Whilst I agree with BobL's advice it is important to consider the potential harm and risks to the maker and end user in the context of their application to the item, how they are handled and stored, and their properties not only when "dry" but in all phases of their use, and potential to cause cumulative toxicity - heavy metals, isocyanates etc. Potential harm..

Most of these things are covered in MSDS but I do wonder how many DIY'ers even know about MSDS for the products they use, bother to download and read them, and most importantly understand the basics therein, let alone the technical details.

I would be convinced that were being used if more questions about MSDS were asked in forums like these.

In the old days . . . .

Once a day for a week,
Once a week for a month,
Once a month for a year.

Basically how linseed oil was applied.

Walnut oil works about the same. It also cures and is available in the salad oil aisle in the grocery store.

Once a day for a week,
Once a week for a month,
Once a month for a year.

And once a year on your birthday.

I have one lady who has a blanket box of mine, who did this and still oils it on her birthday. (She received the box as a birthday gift.)

I was once told by a couple of chemists I worked with, that if you can smell a solvent, you are being poisoned. This doesn't mean that if you can't smell a solvent it is safe. It's mainly, but not only, the solvents in finishes that are dangerous due to contact or inhalation.

As Mobyturns says, and BobL alludes to, there is a range of toxicity, and you really need to look at the MSDS for a particular product.

Have a look at the Osmo range. I'm using them almost exclusively now. Great to use, all natural and very tough.

As BobL said, everything is made up of chemicals. Everything is also natural.
Marketing has convinced us that petro chemical derived products are unnatural and poisonous. They used to be forests.
It would be a challenge to find something that is not on the "Safe Food" list, let alone buy it today.

The main thing is to use them as prescribed and be aware of some peoples sensitivities.
Rant over.

I make a lot of African instruments and the drums come from Africa soaked in either Shea butter or Palm Oil. The thick coatings don't look or smell that great. I scrub the excess off and finish them with Shea Butter or Coconut Oil or a combination. I polish off the new finish and they look, smell and feel fantastic.

On my furniture I have used most finishes. The choice depending on the use of the furniture.

My favourite is Livos Kunos Oil. I believe that the Osmo range is similar. They are plant based formulations.
Kunos Oil is easy to apply, has a mild nutty oil smell and gives a great finish.
Neil Scobie told me that he started using Kunos Oils because his daughter was sensitive to his other finishes.
One feature that appeals to me is that as soon as you wipe off the excess the finish feels smooth and dry.

IMHO it would have to be one of the easiest and best "natural" oil finishes to use.

When my grandchildren were babies I was looking for a colorful finish for alphabet-blocks. I spoke with our sponsor UBeaut and was advised to use their water-based dyes on the cedar blocks. They are mouth-safe for babies and after 10 years are wearing well. Our newest infant will play with the blocks after I apply a new coat of colour to freshen them up. BTW the children are healthy and at school now.

Such an interesting discussions.
We have been working for several years with Building biologist and they can often work out and test various issues relating to health issues and sick building syndrome.


Yes, all products are chemicals, so are the plant based ones such as Livos. The big difference is that the ingredient list is openly declared. This gives you the choice. Yes, some are sensitive to various natural ingredients but if a product contains it, they you choose to use it or not.


About MSDS, did you know that if there is less than a certain percentage, 1% one does not have to declare a “nasty”? So what happens if there are multiple nasties...doesn’t matter as they are individually less than 1%!!!!


Once cured, some coatings continue of off gass semi VOC (volatile organic compounds) for many weeks some even longer. Think of modified water based oils...what is in them to make water and oil mix? What are the auxiliary chemicals?


Having a product “certified” food safe means it is independently tested outside the manufactures premises and labs. They go through rigorous procedures to become certified.


No smell does not mean non toxic. Natural does not necessarily mean non toxic ether but, one would suspect that one would have less issues with product or ingredients based on natural materials rather than synthetic products.


Whilst some products are similar, two mentioned in the thread, the purity of the ingredients of some are not as clean as one would wish them to be.


As mentioned, one must consider the potential harm and keep an open mind. One thing to keep in mind is that just because you are not sensitive to something now, does not mean you won’t become sensitive to it in the future.

There are always trade offs.
Natural things are not assured to be safe....
And there is no such thing as perfectly harmless.

For example - arsenic, cyanide, ricin, uranium, lead, and botulism are all perfectly "natural"...

The first "proven" carcinogen was western red cedar wood. The sawdust causes cancer in high doses. And yet cedar plank salmon is a common food preparation.

Then - there are dosage effects.... Our bodies need certain things to operate properly - but those same things turn into poison if too much is taken or if they end up in the wrong place. Water will kill you if you drink too much.

anyway - on to the finishes...

I prefer short oil varnish finishes. I really like phenolic varnishes for their durability... But alkyd varnishes have proven their utility over time. They are generally very durable and hold up exremely well in use. They are also beautiful. These finishes contain very small quantities of heavy metal dryers to speed up their cure. Without those dryers added - varnishes require a UV booth to cure out in less than a few months. They also require solvents to apply. These solvents are things like turpentine, mineral spirits, and naptha. Perhaps not what you want to apply indoors - but not harmful in the same risk category as lacquer thinner, MEK, and the formaldehydes/benzenes used in Denatured alcohol.

Even boiled lineeed oil and tung oil finishes contain chemical dryers.

For food contact items like cutting boards and bowls - I just wipe down the wood with vegetable oil. Easy to rejuvenate, and you always have some around. But - tables and chairs.... You dont really "eat" the finish like you might with a cutting board.... And finish wiping off on your clothes is a problem.... So they need a proper drying finish.

Most straight oil finishes do very poorly with water/drink contact and washing.... You are assured drink rings on your furniture and finish stains/marks from wiping up messes. Magazines and news print will transfer ink stains onto straight oil finishes.

Even shellac finishes do poorly With regard to blushing and water spots..