Thread: OK - here it is $5,000 budget

It can be a pain comparing tools and machines.

From a quick look at the H&F links, they all look reasonable.
My preference is the 8" jointer. The longer bed makes it easier to joint long boards.

I don't like the motor on top of the thicknesser. The top is a really handy place to rest boards that you are thicknessing.
My brother has a CT one and I have a Jet. They look almost identical but the Jet has a few small features that make it much easier to use. The overall quality of the machine is better and it has been trouble free.
Good machines aren't cheap..... Buy with confidence.
Cheap tools are cheap........Best avoided.
Premium tools and machines are expensive......They are very good. I buy them if I will use them often.

You should add a good 1/2"Router to your shopping list. They are amazing machines that open up many options. Eventually you wiil want more than one....
Makita is a solid machine. Buy variable speed if you can but it isn't necessary.

Get a good Power Saw.
It is often easier to rip sheet material ( Ply and MDF) with a power saw and fence than to wrestle it through a table saw.

An electric drill is very useful. They are great when you need some grunt like drilling Bricks or steel. Cordless drill aren't good at this work.

I avoid really cheap tools and machines.
I might buy a $20 angle grinder if I only expected to use it once, or once or twice a year.

You can get a lot of satisfaction knowing that a tool/machine will work and work well. So I buy for my enjoyment and satisfaction.

If I had 3 Phase then I would buy the quality of 3 Phase machinery.

You make a good point about second hand machinery. I don't know much about lathes so I would either buy new or get help from a friend with the knowledge to help me buy secondhand.
I know a bit about table saws and thicknessers so I would be confident about finding good seconhand machines.

Enjoy.

Thanks for all of the replies guys and sorry I got the PM about the barbie too late, but thanks.

Thanks for all of the advice so far, I was about to go and buy machinery on Thursday but something came up and I couldn't make it.

Do you think I should wait until the woodshow which will be here in Perth in a couple of weeks.

Possibly bargains to be had?

Originally Posted by Arry

................Do you think I should wait until the woodshow which will be here in Perth in a couple of weeks.

Possibly bargains to be had?

It will give you a chance to look at one then the same at another maker then go back and check that the first is the same - not so sure there are bargains to be had but comparing is far easier.

I think you should really get that 3 phase on the shed and go from there - using 10 amp machines will very quickly become frustrating as the lack of power will soon be obvious.

Then with 3 phase you go secondhand with the cheapest and best tools you will ever own.

If you buy 10 amp machines you will be looking for better ones in about 6months time and have no funds to change them.

just my 2c

Cheers

Originally Posted by Calm

It will give you a chance to look at one then the same at another maker then go back and check that the first is the same - not so sure there are bargains to be had but comparing is far easier.

I think you should really get that 3 phase on the shed and go from there - using 10 amp machines will very quickly become frustrating as the lack of power will soon be obvious.

Then with 3 phase you go secondhand with the cheapest and best tools you will ever own.

If you buy 10 amp machines you will be looking for better ones in about 6months time and have no funds to change them.

just my 2c

Cheers

I'm running 15A 240 machines. I needed some new wiring, but not three phase.

You need a circuit that supports 15A or better, and AFAIK that's the norm. The limiting factor is most of the fittings are 10A. At the moment, I have a 15A power point at the house and a "caravan cord" extension cord to the workshop. We are rewiring the house RSN, it will be done better then.

Originally Posted by Johncs

I'm running 15A 240 machines. I needed some new wiring, but not three phase.

You need a circuit that supports 15A or better, and AFAIK that's the norm. The limiting factor is most of the fittings are 10A. At the moment, I have a 15A power point at the house and a "caravan cord" extension cord to the workshop. We are rewiring the house RSN, it will be done better then.

If you read earlier posts you will note that the OP has stated that he has 3 phase to the house already for an aircon.

He also stated that he is considering buying machines from H&F instead of Carbetec because they have 10amp plugs on them.

The point i was making is that 10amp machines are less powerful and would soon drive you mad being underpowered and stalling when you try to do bigger work.

Also 3 phase equipment is professional not handyman stuff so is better made with better tolerances etc. so the result out the other side is better to wprk with. Warranty is not as likely to be a :necasary" item as with handyman equip.

Hope that clears up a few points.

Cheers

The point i was making is that 10amp machines are less powerful and would soon drive you mad being underpowered and stalling when you try to do bigger work.

Whilst it is probably true that 3 phase industrial machines in general have larger motors designed to run under load all day long, I think that is probably beyond the requirements of a hobbyist woodworker. I don't accept that because a machine is designed to run off single phase at 10amps that it is necessarily under-powered.

I have several machines and only one requires a 15 amp socket (the table saw - ironically this same saw was made available for a short period with a 10amp plug and some forum members own the 10amp 'version'). All the others (bandsaw, thicknesser, drill press, jointer, dust collector) came fitted with 10 amp plugs, run quite happily on my 10 amp circuit and I've yet to have one stall, unless you include a slipping drive belt, which isn't really what you're talking about.

I'm not sure what you might refer to as "bigger" work. Perhaps you could expand on that.

There may be advantages in buying second hand industrial equipment but I'll bet there are disadvantages too, and that might include availability and cost of parts and consumables. The machines are generally physically larger as well, which may or may not be an issue in some sheds. Having worked in a joinery, I can also say that they are generally not subject to the most caring attention either.

That's not to say don't buy them. But go into it with your eyes open and don't assume that you wont find single phase machines that will do as good a job for you.

Hi guys

Even after reading through all of the posts I am not convinced that 3 phase is for me.
Firstly I need to get the wiring from the circuit board to the future shed and apparently is very costly.

When I way it all up I agree with Silent C

What would bigger work be?
What about parts?
What if the machine dies?
No warranty etc?

How would power bills go on 3 phase compared to 10amp or 15 amp does anyone know.

I know it is supposed to be cheaper to run for my aircon etc but when you compare the industrial machines to the 10amp ones etc would it be a massive difference etc?

I have no idea about power, volts, amps etc?

As a general rule of thumb, the larger the motor, the more power it will use. However, for hobby use, I don't think power costs will play a major role in your decision.

The way I see it, the advantage of three phase is that it does allow you to run larger machines. It also gives you the option to buy a 3 phase machine when the opportunity comes along if the price is right - not that you require 3 phase power to use it because there are rotary devices you can buy that will simulate 3 phase.

Do you need it? Based on what you've said, I don't think you do, notwithstanding some very good points being made about quality of machines and bargain prices. I wouldn't try to dissuade you from going the 3 phase route, I just want to point out that it's not necessary for a hobbyist and you will most likely not regret staying with single phase, so long as you buy good quality machines. I don't think that you need to be concerned about the power of single phase machines.

FWIW I have 3 phase wiring to my shed but have not had it connected at the meter box because as yet I haven't found a need for it. However if I did have it connected then it would give me another alternative when buying machinery. And it always sounds good to tell your mates you have it

Hi Arry

I agree with Silent () that 3-phase is not necessary. I also see the point of having this ..... BUT when one is starting out you (a) have a limited budget (well, most of us start that way ), and (b) everything looks daunting enough that we prefer simple solutions. 3-phase is something too complicated for the mindset at this point.

Would I like 3 phase? Sure, but I would also like a lot of fancy equipment. And most of the pro-level second hand equipment falls into this range.

Do I need 3 phase? No. Absolutely not. Ordinary single phase is what most people have and what most people use ... including pros ... and do so very happily (there are a few conditions).

Do I have room for the equipment that 3 phase would be used for? NO!!! Bloody hell, I only have 2/3 of a double garage (I have to leave room for a small car to fit in at night).

The only piece of equipment that I have that needs more than 10 amps is my bandsaw, a Hammer N4400, which requires 20 amps for its 4 hp. We were adding on to the house a year ago and so I had a 20 amp circuit, 2x15 amps, and extra 10 amp installed (that cost close to $2K). Technically, my 2hp Carba-tec tablesaw should use 15 amp. It is rated at 11 amp. The 2hp Carba-tec dusty, 2 hp 12 1/2" Delta thicknesser, and the 1 1/2 hp 8" Carba-tec jointer all run on 10 amps. So does the drill press, the power routers, etc, etc.

You do need plenty of 10 amp plugs, preferably ones that do not run off the same circuit. The only real drawback to 10 amps is that you cannot run more two large machines at once (machines, not power tools).

The only thing that does not need 10 amp plugs are my hand planes

Would I buy H&F? The guys who run the Perth office are helpful ... but I find the equipment is poorer quality than the Carba-tec "versions". The machines may be similar on the surface, but there are many features that are either different designed or made to a lower price point. For example, when I was searching for a jointer, the differences were very obvious (look for yourself at the specs on their websites).

My offer still stands if you want to see some of the equipment I have. Just PM me.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Why are people always surprised to find they agree with me?

Originally Posted by silentC

Why are people always surprised to find they agree with me?

Where do we start?

Hi Arry.

Unfortunately the fact is that budgets suck.

However, if you have some pennies to spend there are several machinery warehouses and traders on the net.

Understandably warranties etc are a concern, but some of these traders trade second hand equipment which has been used as a trade in by a previous customer to buy new or other equipment.
In many cases the trader offers a service of the equipment before resale and a warranty.

Here is a link of one trader in WA.

http://www.affordablemachinery.com.a...lts.php?cat=31

I'm not in WA and don't know what they are like but a look can't hurt.

I have a bookmark folder with quite a few of these sorts of sites from all over Oz.
Some I found to be duplicates of the same equipment lists but it is an additional option to the off the cuff "EBay" response.

PM me if interested. - I tried copy and paste the links into a document to post on photo bucket etc etc. As your not viewing it right now you can guess it didn't work.
I might be able to zip the folder and email it or something.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not bashing on EBay or any one who refers it; I'm just throwing an option into the hat.

My understanding how our supreme overlord of machinery outlayed the laws of electromagnetically powering of awesome devices such as table saws is as follows:
As I didn't pay attention in Sunday school, I may be wrong; the day of reckoning will steer me straight.

Your standard house power is 240 volt on 1 circuit. That is a voltage potential difference from point a (positive) to point b (neutral or negative) of 240 volts alternating in direction at 50 cycles per second.

3 phase is pretty much the same thing but 415 volts on 3 individual circuits (red, white and blue usually) with a neutral circuit being the "point b" I believe.
The potential voltage difference between any of the 3 circuits themselves is 240 volt which is how 3 phase can be used to supply domestic 240 applications.

An electric motor in a machine operates on a magnetic field or flux which causes the rotor to, funnily enough, rotate.
As a 3 phase machine has 3 individual circuits creating magnetic fields with a higher voltage, I guess they are more efficient in creating the same power output of that of which a 240 volt motor / machine might create.

I would assume your aircon produces the same output to cool / heat your house effectively as the 240 volt version would. However, the refrigeration motor probably doesn't have to run as long as a 240 volt motor would to produce the same outcome. Thus, being more efficient.

If this is the case, the cost of running the 3 phase to the shed might be recouped by the 3 phase machines being cheaper to buy and possibly to run. This may also be wishful thinking. Contact your power supplier as they might be able to give you the actual facts.

Alternatively, if you are not in a hurry for the machines - like needed them yesterday...
There are several plans for shop built equipment also, including table saws etc.
However, I guess this is a matter of personal preference based on skills etc.

Industrial equipment is typically 3 phase.
The fact is that the engineering of industrial equipment will be far superior to 240 volt hobby type stuff.
This reflects on accuracy of cuts, glide of material through the machine etc and the finish you obtain from the equipment. Industrial is like the cadillac and you are lucky enough to have it as an option that the rest of us dream of.
Just watch with older stuff re safety sytems although it shouldn't be a big issue. You know like steam engines don't have guards etc.

On the matter of cheap stuff... my experience is that ya get what ya pay for.
It might do the job, but never in my experience straight from the box.
You nearly always have to stuff around and fine tune so it cuts straight or square or the bed is true etc, etc.
Yes, they will get you out of a spot; but then they will have their own spot... usually Ebay for the next person or the bin.

However, I accept others members have found good in some of these wondrous items.

A tip from a machine importer I knew... some of the cheaper stuff uses poor grade metals for wear components. So beds and things that are subject to slide wear etc wear out quickly.

Best of luck and don't play with the sparky thing in the power box without proper supervision.

Cheers,
Rob.

I'm going to venture in here, even though a lot of the previous posters have more experience than I. I don't scare easily ...

Join a club if there is one near you. They will have the machinery and you will be able to use it, and you will also quickly get to know the blokes there who know what they are talking about.

Do a course (which you are already doing aren't you?). This is a great way to learn, and if the school has a workshop you can put off buying a jointer and thicknesser for a long time. And did I mention you'll learn stuff? The most important thing you'll get from a course is knowledge...

As to the equipment. I like knowing how to do stuff by hand. So I have quite a few handplanes and lots of chisels. That I love restoring (what a fun thing to do - I'm not kidding), and I love using them. And I bought them all old and scummy (except for the new HNT Gordon shoulder plane that I bought that is a work of ART) and loved doing them up. Old, good chisels can be picked up for $15 a pop at markets and such. I picked up an AE Berg 1/4 inch chisel at a church sale once for $2. Only picked it because of the handle shape (I know what a Berg chisel looks like!). A bit of restoration turned it into the best chisel I own - $2! Go to markets, go to garage sales, read the information on this website to find out what old brands are good to buy. It will pay off big time.

But doing stuff by hand is slow. So having machinery allows you to do stuff more quickly, which helps if you want to make things...

Having a table saw is great if you know how to use one, and you can get by without a dropsaw if you have one. There might be the odd occasion when you still want a circular saw - it is hard to use a table saw to take two inches off the top of a fence post... But table saws are quite expensive and take up a lot of space. It is a big investment. I had a lot of room, and I bought a cheap one. And now I'm upgrading to a better one - one that will last me for the rest of my life. Maybe there's a lesson there...

Having a jointer and thicknesser is just so nice if you want to make furniture. You can get by without them, but doing things by hand is slow (very satisfying, but slow). But they are expensive - good ones anyway. If you can use a school's or a club's for a year or two, do...

I think a router table is a very useful thing - but I haven't got around to making myself one yet... I used one at the school that I went to - great things and very versatile.

Same with bandsaws, I used them at my course all the time, so useful. I've got a 14 inch bandsaw and until I get a lathe and start turning I think it will do me nicely - but I've got a lot of timber that I don't need to resaw...

And I'm in the process of getting 3 phase power connected to my garage. It will cost me enough money to make it hurt, but the second hand three phase combination machine that I've just bought will make it all worthwhile. And I will then be able to take advantage of it and pick up an old lathe, drill press and dusty cheap. I will soon have a cheap second hand Carbatec table saw for sale...

Second hand good quality machinery is a great choice. It will save you a fortune, and you'll be able to buy much more for your money. And it will last a lot longer and give you much better service than the new cheaper machinery that Carbatec and Hare and Forbes sell. There is a huge difference between a brand new Carbatec machine and a second hand Hammer. For example... Same with hand tools. Most old hand tools will out perform cheap new tools every time. There are some beautiful hand tools being made now - but they aren't cheap. The plane I use most often cost me $10...

Anyway. I waffle on a lot. If I were you I'd learn as much as I could before I rushed out and bought anything. You'll save a packet... Good luck, I hope you enjoy the hobby as much as I do, whatever choices you make.