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  1. #1
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    Oct 2012
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    Default What preceded the edge-to-edge joint for creating large surfaces?

    Hi everyone,

    I am interested in how pieces of wood were joined together to make a large surface before modern glues made the edge-to-edge joint reliable.

    For example, in my project book there is a plan for a chopping board using edge-to-edge joints as the only thing holding the piece together.

    How would a, say, 18th Century woodworker have gone about such a project?

    Any ideas/speculation would be great.

    Cheers.

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  3. #2
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    Scarf joins....and much larger, more mature trees than we have access to today reducing the need for them!!!!

  4. #3
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    Dec 2005
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    South Australia
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    Default

    It all depends on what your definition of "modern glues" is glue it one form or another has been around for a very long time, around 4000BC

  5. #4
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    back in Alberta for a while
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Russell Cook View Post
    Hi everyone,

    I am interested in how pieces of wood were joined together to make a large surface before modern glues made the edge-to-edge joint reliable.

    For example, in my project book there is a plan for a chopping board using edge-to-edge joints as the only thing holding the piece together.

    How would a, say, 18th Century woodworker have gone about such a project?

    Any ideas/speculation would be great.

    Cheers.
    bigger treees yielding wider boards

    animal or hide glue
    regards from Alberta, Canada

    ian

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Leeds, UK
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    21

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Russell Cook View Post
    ... using edge-to-edge joints as the only thing holding the piece together.

    How would a, say, 18th Century woodworker have gone about such a project?

    Any ideas/speculation would be great. Cheers.
    I don't think there is much speculation required really because cabinetmakers in the 1700s used similar techniques to those used now although the mating edges would have been prepared entirely with hand tools, eg a sprung edge joint rubbed together with something like hide glue, Russian glue or fish glue. Frequently, apart from rubbing together, the joint wasn't pulled up any tighter with, for example, sash type cramps, windlass type affairs, or whatever. Fish glue was reckoned to be the strongest by craftspeople of the time if I recall correctly. Another technique sometimes used was keyhole slot screws on the edges. Over the years I've worked on quite a bit of old furniture and antiques, and seen both techniques in use.

    But, as others have pointed out, glue has been around for millenia: I think there's evidence of hide type glue in use stretching back to one of the ancient civilisations, eg the Egyptians, so it seems likely that knowing how to use it has been around for as long. Slainte.

  7. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
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    Jimboomba. Qld
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    Default

    Some i'm sure just used butt joints

    However for quality work the use of the sprung joint was the main process.

    To my mind still the best way to join boards.

    And to fly in the face of an avalanche of denial and tutt tutting, easier

    quicker and the more cost effective than Dowling, Biscuits and Dominoes



    Cheers

    Steve

  8. #7
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    Victoria
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    I think we have become victims to some extent of advertising. Of course hide glue has problems with damp and bacterial action but it is a a strong glue proven over the centuries. I suspect we tend to use glues that are overkill - it doesn't make a lot of sense to have a joint many times stronger than the wood it is holding together.
    Cheers,
    Jim

  9. #8
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    The French used sliding dovetail keys for bread board applications. One over, one under.
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  10. #9
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    Big trees = wide boards? I suppose so. Think about what you are expected to do:
    Step one is to chop down a 36" English walnut tree with your axe.
    Step two: figure out how to either move it or cut it up on the spot.
    Step three: with your handy-dandy 16th/17th century hand saw, cut a few slabs for me, would you please?
    Don't forget to make certain that they dry ruler straight.

    Narrow boards would be far, far faster to cut and season.
    I don't have any furniture pre-1800. 1815 is about the oldest.
    By then, glue and dowels quickly assembled broad surfaces.
    The dowels could be carved by hand. How old is the brace & bit?
    Hide glues still work wonders in doors.
    And for many/most of the most expensive stringed instruments that you will ever see.

  11. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russell Cook View Post
    a chopping board ....How would a, say, 18th Century woodworker have gone about such a project?
    Maybe they didn't need to join pieces to make a board!?


    On a more serious note, I know you aren't specifically talking about chopping blocks, but I went searching for images of them anyway. A lot of end grain blocks joined together was the standard chopping block... more than often bolted through. Was any glue used??

    Cheers
    Andy Mac
    Change is inevitable, growth is optional.

  12. #11
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    Well, watermill powered sawmills were first used some 2000 years ago (the Romans also used them for cutting marble) so I don't think breaking up large logs was seen as too much of a challenge...on-site breakdown was often done by a pit saw (see - Rest Point Saw Pit ) so if Australian settlers were prepared to tackle a meter thick jarrah log with just a long saw, a couple of guys and a hole in the ground, I think the Romans (with a hefty supply of slave labour) could have coped with much larger!

  13. #12
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    Sawpit Creek, a place name from Vic/Aus, I recall. On the way to Buller? Hotham?
    I have seen those pits they worked in.
    But, what's the point? You get a 1m wide slab that will warp like a banana.
    I hope that your salesmanship is brilliant.

    Breaking up a big log, sawing it, OK. How shall we get it out of the forest?
    Clearly a sawmill, however powered, was a major machine.

    AndyMac's post & image makes a key point - they were minimalists at cutting.

    Go ahead, cut down a 1-2m tree. What next? Huh?
    What does a 15m x 2m oak/walnut log weigh?
    Pouring rain for the past 3 weeks = do you think they were silly enough to go
    logging? Not.

  14. #13
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    So it was aliens that shifted the 2.5 tonne blocks for the pyramids and moved them bits o' rubble for Stonehenge over peat bog and the like?

    Don't underestimate the power of cheap labour; remember that the 3,000 odd km of canals in England were dug mostly by hand (because the newly invented steam shovel was too expensive for the task!)

  15. #14
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    What on earth are you on about Robson??
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  16. #15
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    That post smacks of the all too familiar superiority complex of contemporary civilisation. Because we can't possibly accept the notion that great feats of engineering, stonemasonry and timberwork were performed in the absence of modern technology (and some of them are remarkably difficult if not impossible for us to replicate even with modern technology!) we choose to believe that so many things must have been impossible until recent times. This despite the obvious archeological evidence, the abundance of evidence recorded on ancient walls, books etc, the magnificent ancient architecture, naval architecture, the deforestation of the great forests, etc, etc, etc... And now we're supposed to believe that a large tree was virtually impossible to break down back in the day? That has to be one of the most benighted statements I've ever heard.

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