Thanks: 0
Needs Pictures: 0
Picture(s) thanks: 0
Results 1 to 15 of 16
-
23rd November 2012, 04:47 PM #1Senior Member
- Join Date
- Oct 2012
- Location
- Shanghai
- Posts
- 102
What preceded the edge-to-edge joint for creating large surfaces?
Hi everyone,
I am interested in how pieces of wood were joined together to make a large surface before modern glues made the edge-to-edge joint reliable.
For example, in my project book there is a plan for a chopping board using edge-to-edge joints as the only thing holding the piece together.
How would a, say, 18th Century woodworker have gone about such a project?
Any ideas/speculation would be great.
Cheers.
-
23rd November 2012 04:47 PM # ADSGoogle Adsense Advertisement
- Join Date
- Always
- Location
- Advertising world
- Posts
- Many
-
23rd November 2012, 05:43 PM #2
Scarf joins....and much larger, more mature trees than we have access to today reducing the need for them!!!!
-
23rd November 2012, 10:38 PM #3China
- Join Date
- Dec 2005
- Location
- South Australia
- Posts
- 4,470
It all depends on what your definition of "modern glues" is glue it one form or another has been around for a very long time, around 4000BC
-
23rd November 2012, 11:25 PM #4
-
24th November 2012, 12:05 AM #5Novice
- Join Date
- Jul 2006
- Location
- Leeds, UK
- Posts
- 21
I don't think there is much speculation required really because cabinetmakers in the 1700s used similar techniques to those used now although the mating edges would have been prepared entirely with hand tools, eg a sprung edge joint rubbed together with something like hide glue, Russian glue or fish glue. Frequently, apart from rubbing together, the joint wasn't pulled up any tighter with, for example, sash type cramps, windlass type affairs, or whatever. Fish glue was reckoned to be the strongest by craftspeople of the time if I recall correctly. Another technique sometimes used was keyhole slot screws on the edges. Over the years I've worked on quite a bit of old furniture and antiques, and seen both techniques in use.
But, as others have pointed out, glue has been around for millenia: I think there's evidence of hide type glue in use stretching back to one of the ancient civilisations, eg the Egyptians, so it seems likely that knowing how to use it has been around for as long. Slainte.
-
24th November 2012, 09:41 AM #6
Some i'm sure just used butt joints
However for quality work the use of the sprung joint was the main process.
To my mind still the best way to join boards.
And to fly in the face of an avalanche of denial and tutt tutting, easier
quicker and the more cost effective than Dowling, Biscuits and Dominoes
Cheers
Steve
-
24th November 2012, 09:56 AM #7Jim
- Join Date
- Feb 2008
- Location
- Victoria
- Posts
- 3,191
I think we have become victims to some extent of advertising. Of course hide glue has problems with damp and bacterial action but it is a a strong glue proven over the centuries. I suspect we tend to use glues that are overkill - it doesn't make a lot of sense to have a joint many times stronger than the wood it is holding together.
Cheers,
Jim
-
24th November 2012, 10:08 AM #8
The French used sliding dovetail keys for bread board applications. One over, one under.
-
24th November 2012, 12:06 PM #9GOLD MEMBER
- Join Date
- Apr 2011
- Location
- McBride BC Canada
- Posts
- 3,543
Big trees = wide boards? I suppose so. Think about what you are expected to do:
Step one is to chop down a 36" English walnut tree with your axe.
Step two: figure out how to either move it or cut it up on the spot.
Step three: with your handy-dandy 16th/17th century hand saw, cut a few slabs for me, would you please?
Don't forget to make certain that they dry ruler straight.
Narrow boards would be far, far faster to cut and season.
I don't have any furniture pre-1800. 1815 is about the oldest.
By then, glue and dowels quickly assembled broad surfaces.
The dowels could be carved by hand. How old is the brace & bit?
Hide glues still work wonders in doors.
And for many/most of the most expensive stringed instruments that you will ever see.
-
24th November 2012, 02:21 PM #10
Maybe they didn't need to join pieces to make a board!?
On a more serious note, I know you aren't specifically talking about chopping blocks, but I went searching for images of them anyway. A lot of end grain blocks joined together was the standard chopping block... more than often bolted through. Was any glue used??
CheersAndy Mac
Change is inevitable, growth is optional.
-
24th November 2012, 03:52 PM #11
Well, watermill powered sawmills were first used some 2000 years ago (the Romans also used them for cutting marble) so I don't think breaking up large logs was seen as too much of a challenge...on-site breakdown was often done by a pit saw (see - Rest Point Saw Pit ) so if Australian settlers were prepared to tackle a meter thick jarrah log with just a long saw, a couple of guys and a hole in the ground, I think the Romans (with a hefty supply of slave labour) could have coped with much larger!
-
24th November 2012, 05:49 PM #12GOLD MEMBER
- Join Date
- Apr 2011
- Location
- McBride BC Canada
- Posts
- 3,543
Sawpit Creek, a place name from Vic/Aus, I recall. On the way to Buller? Hotham?
I have seen those pits they worked in.
But, what's the point? You get a 1m wide slab that will warp like a banana.
I hope that your salesmanship is brilliant.
Breaking up a big log, sawing it, OK. How shall we get it out of the forest?
Clearly a sawmill, however powered, was a major machine.
AndyMac's post & image makes a key point - they were minimalists at cutting.
Go ahead, cut down a 1-2m tree. What next? Huh?
What does a 15m x 2m oak/walnut log weigh?
Pouring rain for the past 3 weeks = do you think they were silly enough to go
logging? Not.
-
24th November 2012, 10:50 PM #13
So it was aliens that shifted the 2.5 tonne blocks for the pyramids and moved them bits o' rubble for Stonehenge over peat bog and the like?
Don't underestimate the power of cheap labour; remember that the 3,000 odd km of canals in England were dug mostly by hand (because the newly invented steam shovel was too expensive for the task!)
-
24th November 2012, 11:33 PM #14
What on earth are you on about Robson??
-
24th November 2012, 11:57 PM #15
That post smacks of the all too familiar superiority complex of contemporary civilisation. Because we can't possibly accept the notion that great feats of engineering, stonemasonry and timberwork were performed in the absence of modern technology (and some of them are remarkably difficult if not impossible for us to replicate even with modern technology!) we choose to believe that so many things must have been impossible until recent times. This despite the obvious archeological evidence, the abundance of evidence recorded on ancient walls, books etc, the magnificent ancient architecture, naval architecture, the deforestation of the great forests, etc, etc, etc... And now we're supposed to believe that a large tree was virtually impossible to break down back in the day? That has to be one of the most benighted statements I've ever heard.
Similar Threads
-
How best to edge joint spooted gum slabs?
By Dengue in forum WOODWORK - GENERALReplies: 5Last Post: 15th September 2010, 08:33 AM -
creating large radius in ply joinery
By matan in forum BOAT BUILDING / REPAIRINGReplies: 6Last Post: 9th April 2008, 11:54 PM -
A large natural edge bowl
By powderpost in forum WOODTURNING - GENERALReplies: 4Last Post: 31st January 2008, 08:49 AM -
Sink Installation - distance from front bench edge to sink edge
By Flynn in forum KITCHENSReplies: 16Last Post: 18th May 2007, 11:46 PM -
3-edge roundover, 1-edge straight.
By CT in forum ROUTING FORUMReplies: 8Last Post: 21st May 2006, 01:05 AM