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  1. #31
    rrich Guest

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    Buying tools requires some common sense.

    First, How many jobs do you expect to do with the tool? The answer will guide you to the quality of the tool that is needed.

    I needed to drill a large diameter hole (75mm) and there were two choices available to me. Our equivalent of Bunnings or Harbor Freight. About $20 or $4. I chose the HF set of hole saws for $4. Recently I used the set a second time (different size hole) so I'm way ahead.

    Do you expect the tool to last for most of your life? Then you need to choose carefully.

    About 25 years ago I purchased a B&D Pro Series worm drive circular saw for the then outrageous price of $110. Recently a professional carpenter offered me $300 for the saw. (I declined.) I'm sure that my children will fight over the saw when I'm gone.

    When looking at cheap tools and intending them for more than a single use, an important consideration is servicability. Can you fix the tool or fine tune the tool to work properly? Then the real cheap tools may provide years of acceptable service after you have spent the time to "fix" the tool.

    Generally speaking, cheap power tools with high rotational speeds should be avoided.

    While working at a woodworking hardware retail store, a sparky brought in a 3 HP router. (2200 Wats???) His complaint was that with a 25mm round over bit it was chattering and ruining the work. I looked at the router and realized that the shaft that held the collet was screwed into the motor shaft and wouldn't stay tight. This was his third router from HF and all had the same problem. He didn't want to spend any more money as he was doing a favor for a client and wouldn't buy a better quality router.

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  3. #32
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    I think that with tools there will be always difference of opinions and when the reason for buying a tool can be outlined and said in more or less wise words, the fact remains that there are a lot of 'other' factors at play when we buy tools.
    I starved for tools for a good part of my early life. I remember mixing mud for brick laying, on the ground and with my only trowel because I did not have a bucket nor a shovel. Today I am a compulsory tool buying addict. I buy tools when I need them and when I don't need them when I like them and for that job I am planing to do sometimes in the distant future.
    I suspect that many hobbist also get the tool buying bug and therefore should be classified more as collectors of tools then tradsman that buy tools for a job and a purpose totlay detached from emotions of any kind.

    And as you know collectors are sort of sick people who don't know any better but to buy yet more tools.
    “We often contradict an opinion for no other reason
    than that we do not like the tone in which it is expressed.”

    Friedrich Nietzsche


  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    ...And as you know collectors are sort of sick people who don't know any better but to buy yet more tools.

    Sounds like my boss!
    Rick

    ...often heard to say, "Honey, where are the bandaids?"

  5. #34
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
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    Germany
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    526

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    Quote Originally Posted by John G View Post
    And BTW Damian, both my Makita drills say made in China. I've just had to replace the motor on the 4yo drill. John.
    Someone in here wrote that if money is no object, buy only Festool. Fair enough. They are pretty well the only company left who only cater to discerning tradesmen with healthy tool budgets. The stuff is good. I don't think anyone here can honestly say they haven't joyfully fondled the stuff while whistfully imagining a shopping spree after a lotto win...

    But the reality is: for most of the people in here, woodwork is a hobby. We can neither write the purchase off tax-wise, nor seriously justify the cost to benefit ratio. And it's not indistructable, ie: it's not a buy-it-and-use-it-happily-ever-after proposition.

    As much as some of us would like to stay company-loyal, the buying/outsourcing/manufacturing policies of almost every tool company no longer makes this sensible. Makita for example, make great tools in Japan and not-so-great tools in China. (Maktec is whole other kettle of fish again). Metabo have a lovely middle sized router (Of E 10 and 1229 Signal) but the big boy (Of E 1812) is built by Felisatti and IMHO not as great as it could be.

    While this thread is about cheap VS not cheap, it might be time to start a thread(s) titled simply with the tool type. Then everyone can throw in their two bob/experience with regards to that particular tool. (Perhaps a new category?: Tool Reviews)

    Eg.:
    • Jigsaws
    • Circular Saws
    • Biscuit Jointer
    • Power Drills
    • Angle Drills
    • Battery Drills
    • Routers
    • Planers
    • Nail/Staple Guns
    • Drop Saws/Mitre Saws
    • Saw Benches
    • Thicknessers
    • Bandsaws
    • Orbital Sanders
    • Belt Sanders
    • Angle Grinders
    Perhaps a meter of some kind?

    Tool type
    Tool brand
    Brand model

    Meter (Very good / Good / Average / Not Good / Bad)
    • Quality
    • Accuracy
    • Ease of use
    • Ease of service
    Meter (Yes / Maybe / No)
    • Buy again?
    • Recommend to others?
    If kept factual, it could well be that somone will see that a cheap ABC angle grinder for example, is consistantly rated as good value for money, and someone will buy it based on that.

    I think VBulliten supplies these kinds of building blocks. Might send a proposal to the administrator...
    Is it wrong to be in love with a sawbench?

  6. #35
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Melbourne
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    experiance tells me that the more effort put into a tool, the better wear n tear it will cope with ...here are some instances as to why high end tools cost so much .........and low end .....just dont ....lets take an ordinary drill for example ......does it have stainless steel needle roller bearings?...or fiber bushes .....was the armature precison lathed and checked with a micrometer, and was it balanced .....was it wound using high quality copper .....or a composite?....are the contact bushes high quality and hard wearing ....or did the drill come with a spare set the user could replace ......all these differances and more make up what could be a hard wearing and long term tool .....to a short term once in a blue moon use tool....at times we all buy a cheapy, thinking we are only going to use it now and then .....so we might get our monies worth out of it, but truth be known, we are just kidding ourselves, and end up using it a lot more than we expected, I too have bought a cheapy or two, who has'nt ....and after using them ....it only gives me more determination to buy something better.

  7. #36
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
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    sunderland. england
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    If you learn how to make a good job of something with a "cheap" tool,
    would you then make it better with a "dearer" tool?
    I can only afford the lower end range,and once you learn their faults
    you can adjust them or how you use them to make a decent job.
    This is a D.I.Y.ers observation on the debate, if i were a tradesman
    i'd be able to buy "better" quality, but that does'nt alway's mean "dearest".

  8. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by pitbull View Post
    If you learn how to make a good job of something with a "cheap" tool,
    would you then make it better with a "dearer" tool?
    I can only afford the lower end range,and once you learn their faults
    you can adjust them or how you use them to make a decent job.
    This is a D.I.Y.ers observation on the debate, if i were a tradesman
    i'd be able to buy "better" quality, but that does'nt alway's mean "dearest".
    Hi pitbull. Pommie, huh? You're right, a good job is a good job, no matter what tool was used to do it. If you can do it all with a hammer and a clasp knife, that's fine. To answer your question, you would not necessarily make it better with a dearer tool, but you would almost certainly make it faster and easier and you might avoid some stuff ups along the way. But it's the end result that counts.
    Cheers,

    Bob



  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honorary Bloke View Post
    Hi pitbull. Pommie, huh? You're right, a good job is a good job, no matter what tool was used to do it. If you can do it all with a hammer and a clasp knife, that's fine. To answer your question, you would not necessarily make it better with a dearer tool, but you would almost certainly make it faster and easier and you might avoid some stuff ups along the way. But it's the end result that counts.
    HB your sounding like an American tool salesman forgetting the most important thing is customer and end user satisfaction.

    It has already been proven that power tools DO NOT! provide better quality of workmanship. Just look at all those buildings, structures, fittings that have lasted hundreds of years pre power tools of the quality your implying.

    All to often we have discussed here (and I have only ben here a short time) the number of tools collected from days gone by, still usable not so power tools, although I do have dad's 1960's B&D power drill still going strong one repair replace of bushes.
    Someone is always coming out with bigger better stronger more acurate, they all need super human effort to keep them that way. They will all ware down ware out breakdown, try getting parts in 5 years time see where it gets you nothing to pass onto the next in line.

  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelinround View Post
    HB your sounding like an American tool salesman forgetting the most important thing is customer and end user satisfaction..
    I kind of think I've just been insulted, but for the life of me I can't be sure. Did you actually read my post? I said "the end result is what counts." Doesn't matter what tool you use to get there. How is that like a tool salesman?

    Quote: "It has already been proven that power tools DO NOT! provide better quality of workmanship. Just look at all those buildings, structures, fittings that have lasted hundreds of years pre power tools of the quality your implying."

    We were talking about cheap vs dear power tools, not comparing them to hand tools. And I said they would make things go faster, and they would. It sometimes took 20 years to build a church with that fine craftsmanship, and you don't know (and nor do I) how many stuff-ups they made before they got it the way they wanted it. Crud, do you think it turned out great each and every time?

    I'll bet the old carpenters sat around the building site and told each other things like "boy, you should have seen the timber I stuffed today with my adze, had to throw the whole lot out and start fresh. Wish someone would invent the hand plane."
    Cheers,

    Bob



  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honorary Bloke View Post
    I kind of think I've just been insulted, but for the life of me I can't be sure. Did you actually read my post? I said "the end result is what counts." Doesn't matter what tool you use to get there. How is that like a tool salesman?

    Quote: "It has already been proven that power tools DO NOT! provide better quality of workmanship. Just look at all those buildings, structures, fittings that have lasted hundreds of years pre power tools of the quality your implying."

    We were talking about cheap vs dear power tools, not comparing them to hand tools. And I said they would make things go faster, and they would. It sometimes took 20 years to build a church with that fine craftsmanship, and you don't know (and nor do I) how many stuff-ups they made before they got it the way they wanted it. Crud, do you think it turned out great each and every time?

    I'll bet the old carpenters sat around the building site and told each other things like "boy, you should have seen the timber I stuffed today with my adze, had to throw the whole lot out and start fresh. Wish someone would invent the hand plane."
    No not insulting you HB

    It was you who borught the hand tools into it

    Number two is related. Those craftsmen would have done much worse with those power tools than by hand. They spent years perfecting their techniques and building was a slow process. That was okay then, because everyone did it the same way. But think of the economic disadvantage they would be in now if they didn't speed up production. The fact is, professionals almost always buy expensive tools because they want to maintain that high level of craftsmanship and know it cannot be done quickly enough to turn a profit with inaccurate tools.
    Yes read post I was implying that no matter how good the tool its the user who does the job. Agree with the fact old workmen/masters would have made mistakes, but saying that power tools change this is a phalicy.

    Power tools don't speed things up because they take longer to set up and if not checked or kept in check they creep, ware, distort.
    What dictates accuracy the manufaturing process the maker the user?? They all do no matter the quality.

    B&D, Stanley, Talon tools,Triton were all the ants pants for accuracy until someone pointed out its faults and short comings, the users checking of accuracy is what finds fault.
    No different to any of the range of tools.

    Accuracy comes from a watchfull eye, set up double checking which all still takes time in cases even more time than it would if done by hand. You all are talking as if you have it all at hand plenty of room and all the power in the world to run it all. Building structures fixtures is now in majority done off site where in the old days much was done on site.
    Look at all those who have had to go out and buy dial guages to check for accuracy.
    All the tools that have been invented because people can't keep it accurate, do it the same.

  12. #41
    Join Date
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    It is an interesting point "can you do a good job with cheap tools?".

    Many of us started out with cheapies because we earned less and had more financial responsibilities. We were also inexperienced!

    I know I can do a better job now with cheapies than what I could have 30 years ago.

    I know that if I had used good tools 30 years ago the results might have been marginally better than if I had used cheapies back then.

    I know I can do a much better job now with good tools than the results I would achieve using cheapies now.

    The question is when should a beginner get good tools? At the start might not be a great idea because knowing how to care for them might be lacking even using the best of intentions. Having them delivered on the day of your funeral would be too late for you.

    I think the answer lies somewhere in the region of when the weakest link is by far is your tools. In other words when your skills at using and maintaining tools and your ability to read the timber exceeds the capability of your tools.

    Most of my cheap tools no longer exist. They either broke down beyond repair or were dashed to pieces on the floor when the frustration of spending more time repairing them than the time using them occurred. I have some good tools now and I enjoy using them.

    I would not like anyone to have some of my experiences with cheap power tools, it is awful, it causes high blood pressure, profane language etc.

    They say poor people can't afford cheap tools. Buy something you can afford that is at least semi reliable.
    - Wood Borer

  13. #42
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    Wood Borer then in this argument why do so many companies buy cheap tooling and produce quality work.??

    Yet just as many buy top of the range and take twice as long to prouduce the same product.

    Just look at whats for sale on any sales site world wide for 2nd hand machinery.

    Many are sold due to new ideas faster production times wanted but it doesn't change the most important factor the user.

  14. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelinround View Post
    Wood Borer then in this argument why do so many companies buy cheap tooling and produce quality work.??

    Yet just as many buy top of the range and take twice as long to prouduce the same product.

    Just look at whats for sale on any sales site world wide for 2nd hand machinery.

    Many are sold due to new ideas faster production times wanted but it doesn't change the most important factor the user.
    Bullshyte. They don't produce quality work. You know, there is a big disconnect here somewhere, and I am not sure where. Wheelin, you seem a nice bloke, but your posts are harder to follow than Dingo's, and at least he's doin' it on purpose. (No wukkers, Shane, just an analogy. )

    Your third sentence makes no sense at all. What does second-hand machinery have to do with anything? I guess you and I are destined to misunderstand each other. Do you know the meaning of the term non sequitur? I gather you are a former Pommie. But I get the impression that for you English is a second language. I hope I'm right. Frankly, many of your posts are impossible to follow.
    Cheers,

    Bob



  15. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelinround View Post
    Wood Borer then in this argument why do so many companies buy cheap tooling and produce quality work.??

    Yet just as many buy top of the range and take twice as long to prouduce the same product.

    Just look at whats for sale on any sales site world wide for 2nd hand machinery.

    Many are sold due to new ideas faster production times wanted but it doesn't change the most important factor the user.
    I think you are comparing medium and large production furniture making to hobbyist, serious amateur and craftsman made furniture.

    I don't consider many production made pieces as the pinnacle of furniture. Many of these pieces might be accurate, functional and durable and affordable - no argument there however they are made to a price with little regard to the wonderful features of timber such as grain, figuring, colour etc.

    Can you give examples of the many smart companies buying the cheap equipment and making wonderful furniture in a flash and the other dumb companies who spend their last cent on very expensive equipment and take twice as long to produce an identical piece?

    If you are talking about objects using MDF, staples etc then don't bother giving examples, these are hardly examples of fine woodwork and I don't see the relevance of discussing them in this thread.

    If you are happy using innacurate, unreliable and cumbersome tools, don't let me stop you, I'd much rather use my good tools and machinery.
    - Wood Borer

  16. #45
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    No manufacturer in his right mind would buy GMC OZITO or similar simply because their warranty does not extend to professional use. If your invoice says "El cheepo furniture" you get no warranty. Now lets hear all the stories of so called tradesman from Lakemba who pay cash and return the crap tool every second month to a different Bunnigs store for an exchange....anyway...

    It is sort of amusing to read that some believe there to be a relation between the quality of a power tool and the quality of the finished product.
    The only link is the person that has pride in his work, be it hobby or professional, also has by extension pride in his tool collection and will invariably buy good quality whenever possible with perhaps some exceptions. Hand tools are no exception. I admire handmade planes and Japanese hand tools but they would be wasted on me since I would keep them in a box rattling around and would clean their rust off perhaps once a year things that would horrify the purist.

    As for cheap power tools and professionals, I can imagine a cabinetmaker who needs to drill concrete once in a blue moon, unwilling to buy a Hilti to collect dust, and buying a GMC trow away in stead that will do the job just as well, and last for many years of very little use.
    “We often contradict an opinion for no other reason
    than that we do not like the tone in which it is expressed.”

    Friedrich Nietzsche


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