Thread: Quality vs Budget powertools

Originally Posted by Honorary Bloke

Bullshyte. They don't produce quality work. You know, there is a big disconnect here somewhere, and I am not sure where. Wheelin, you seem a nice bloke, but your posts are harder to follow than Dingo's, and at least he's doin' it on purpose. (No wukkers, Shane, just an analogy. )

Your third sentence makes no sense at all. What does second-hand machinery have to do with anything? I guess you and I are destined to misunderstand each other. Do you know the meaning of the term non sequitur? I gather you are a former Pommie. But I get the impression that for you English is a second language. I hope I'm right. Frankly, many of your posts are impossible to follow.

Pommie still, living in the land of dreams, on the same rock as you = Earth.

non sequitur gues we are both guilty

Good to see you also admited it was you who brought hand tools into the argument HB

I checked it out although I had an idea anyway
non se·qui·tur <script>play_w("N0146100")</script><object style="margin: 3px 3px 5px;" classid="clsid:d27cdb6e-ae6d-11cf-96b8-444553540000" codebase="http://fpdownload.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=6,0,0,0" height="13" width="10">



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2. A statement that does not follow logically from what preceded it.



No way am I going to even try to replace Dingo

Cryptic yes I often write and even talk that way opens the mind to new ideas gives people the need to think more Teachers do this constantly makes kids explore or become more inquisitive other get turned off and tune out.

HB with all due respects never having been to the US (and I have no wish to either) therefore I have not ventured into furniture or other timber related stores in the US. I have how ever seen many imported products to Australia from around the world these vary in quality & crafstmanship. Seen many local made products using crap and quality tools proffessional and amature and in between.

As an apprentice I was always taught it's not the quality of the tool its the user who fashions the product. I have seen this for myself quality craftsmanship produced with basic tools.
Antiques made long before power tools and the accuracy being discussed were even considered bring $$$$$ at auctions. I often wonder if the top of the range accurate tooling we have these days will for the finished product bring the same $$$$ let alone last.

I believe we are discussing the use of the quality acurate tools and their out put for the home handy man, enthusiast.
I relate this to also being their real need for such considering they are not producing for retail not making $$$$ out of it.
Sorry but I can't relate outlaying $5k for a saw table when I am only making for me and my family just because it is an enth degree more accurate than my hand operated tools or is quicker yet sits idle in an shed for months gathering dust.

2nd hand machines have heaps to do with it just look at posts here with for sales. Why are they on selling them same as business do they have found that the quaility they are after isn't there.
Who's told them showed them or have they discoved it for themselves???
They have found that accuracy isn't there they are looking for.
The cost of replacing these machines/tools out ways the cost of repair or maintenance.
Or is it just because they have seen the latest and greatest and want it .

I have seen sheds posted with all and sundry in tools and machinery not for a business but for the sake of having it and being a hobby.
Flamining expensive hobby and waste of resources. The only thing this does is line the pockets of the companies selling the products, the designers and engineers.

Daughter has worked for tool import companies for the lst 7 years and has found this that
Company Yellow tool has tools made in the same factory as companies Blue & Green tools companies. Yellow tool company pays $$ for each tool to be produced, while Blue pays $$$ for its and Green pays $$$$ for what they have made all made from the same steel,alli electrics etc. Green's tools turn out best because those workers know they are getting paid better. This was in relation to Asian manufacturing but is worldwide in manufacturing.

A bit like a teacher who gets paid $1000 a week teaches better then a teahcer who gates paid half that. They both went through the same collage they both teach the same subjects they both produce the same product.

Not if they're teaching irony apparently.

Originally Posted by wheelinround

As an apprentice I was always taught it's not the quality of the tool its the user who fashions the product. I have seen this for myself quality craftsmanship produced with basic tools.
Antiques made long before power tools and the accuracy being discussed were even considered bring $$$$$ at auctions. I often wonder if the top of the range accurate tooling we have these days will for the finished product bring the same $$$$ let alone last.

I'm sorry but I think there is no way you can get anywhere near the result using a $10 plane made from sheet metal compared with a good old Stanley, LV or LN.

I have a fair idea about handplanes but with the el cheapo I can get a better result with a blunt chainsaw without even starting it! Those cheapies are nothing but junk. The body of the plane flexes causing the soft blade to chatter - need I go on. Yes I have tried to get these planes to work for others but with no luck.

I understand to a certain extent what you are saying but there is certainly a standard of tool which if you go below you will be grossly disappointed.

I have some pretty good tools and I take offence when people suggest that I bought them just to look at or to gloat to my mates. Most likely cheaper tools would do a similar quality job, so what - I made my choice and I am very happy about it despite what you or others might think. I bought my tools so I can do woodwork to a standard that suits me and my customers.

A bit like a teacher who gets paid $1000 a week teaches better then a teahcer who gates paid half that.

Sorry mate, but that's bollocks. I think most people work to the best of their ability, regardless of how much they are paid. I know there are some people whose attitude is "I'm being paid peanuts for this, so I'm going to do a half-arsed job" but I reckon they would be in the minority and they are letting themselves down as much as anyone else.

There might be something in the argument that you pay peanuts, you get monkeys - perhaps you get a better result from a $1000 a week school because the $500 a week teacher couldn't get a job there in the first place.

But the argument that workers know they are getting paid more for making company x's tools and therefore do a better job? I don't think so. I think it has much more to do with the parts used and the quality standards implemented, even if two tools or machines are otherwise identical. It probably has as much to do with the tools and machines that don't make it to the market as anything else. Lower standards, more machines, lower overall quality. I wonder how many Festools get chucked in the recycling bin vs. how many Ozitos?

Originally Posted by wheelinround

A bit like a teacher who gets paid $1000 a week teaches better then a teahcer who gates paid half that. They both went through the same collage they both teach the same subjects they both produce the same product.

I Think you've got it ???? about face here.
The teacher who teaches better gets paid $1,000 bucks a week because they are damn good at what they do.
The one getting half as much is so engrossed in self pity that they are not good at teaching.

I Might throw in my own experience on the tools issue while i'm here.

GMC SCMS - could not repeat the same cut twice in 10 seconds
Dewalt SCMS - only moves on my command.

Stanley Chisels - Spend more time sharpening than woodworking
Lie Neilsen Chisel - Cant comment because I haven't sharpened them since they arrived.

Chinese Dovetail Jig - Sitting on the bottom of the River
Gifkins Jig -

I guess for all the argument it comes down to experience. You can't decide which way to go until you have the experience and have used tools in your own way, so do you buy cheap and get the experience and at the same time you may also become frustrated and disappointed? There is a third way and it has been lightly touched on, buy used tools, there are some real bargains out there. That way there is a good chance you can sell it for the same price you paid for the thing if you don't like it. I guess again we are mainly talking powered equipment, used hand tools are available readily, you only have to look at some of the restorations that are done on planes etc. Damo is an expert in the used field, I am sure he could start his own shop! There are even some shops around that sell used tools and if you need something tell them and they can find it. Garage sales are all the go for some of the nicest stuff which is unloved but at the same time really quality stuff. I think Ebay is a bit overrated unless you have the time and patience and I have neither, others do and score some real bargains, though I think those days are disappearing. I apologise if I have gone off topic but it is another viable alternative which lays between the quality and cheap dilemma.

Originally Posted by wheelinround

Pommie still, living in the land of dreams, on the same rock as you = Earth.

Not the same rock as me, mate.

non sequitur gues we are both guilty

Good to see you also admited it was you who brought hand tools into the argument HB

????

I checked it out although I had an idea anyway




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2. A statement that does not follow logically from what preceded it.

Got it in one.

No way am I going to even try to replace Dingo

Okay Shane, you're safe.

Cryptic yes I often write and even talk that way opens the mind to new ideas gives people the need to think more Teachers do this constantly makes kids explore or become more inquisitive other get turned off and tune out.

A cryptic teacher confuses children. It opens their mind to "what am I doing here?" Children explore when they are challenged, not when they are clueless. And speaking of clueless . . . .

HB with all due respects never having been to the US (and I have no wish to either)

Dunno what yer missin' .

therefore I have not ventured into furniture or other timber related stores in the US. I have how ever seen many imported products to Australia from around the world these vary in quality & crafstmanship. Seen many local made products using crap and quality tools proffessional and amature and in between.

Non sequitur. You looked it up yerself.

As an apprentice I was always taught it's not the quality of the tool its the user who fashions the product. I have seen this for myself quality craftsmanship produced with basic tools.

Me too.

Antiques made long before power tools and the accuracy being discussed were even considered bring $$$$$ at auctions. I often wonder if the top of the range accurate tooling we have these days will for the finished product bring the same $$$$ let alone last.

Dunno. That's for the market to decide.

I believe we are discussing the use of the quality acurate tools and their out put for the home handy man, enthusiast.

Aha. At last.

I relate this to also being their real need for such considering they are not producing for retail not making $$$$ out of it.
Sorry but I can't relate outlaying $5k for a saw table when I am only making for me and my family just because it is an enth degree more accurate than my hand operated tools or is quicker yet sits idle in an shed for months gathering dust.

Your decision, mate.

2nd hand machines have heaps to do with it just look at posts here with for sales. Why are they on selling them same as business do they have found that the quaility they are after isn't there.

Oops. Back to non sequitur. And we were doing so well.

Who's told them showed them or have they discoved it for themselves???
They have found that accuracy isn't there they are looking for.

Non sequitur. (From now on, just abbreviated NS.)

The cost of replacing these machines/tools out ways the cost of repair or maintenance.

NS

Or is it just because they have seen the latest and greatest and want it .

Maybe. So ????

I have seen sheds posted with all and sundry in tools and machinery not for a business but for the sake of having it and being a hobby.

You've been peeking! Naughty.


Flamining expensive hobby and waste of resources.

Your opinion only. And it's my resources, eh? And my hobby.

The only thing this does is line the pockets of the companies selling the products, the designers and engineers.

NS.

Daughter has worked for tool import companies for the lst 7 years and has found this that Company Yellow tool has tools made in the same factory as companies Blue & Green tools companies. Yellow tool company pays $$ for each tool to be produced, while Blue pays $$$ for its and Green pays $$$$ for what they have made all made from the same steel,alli electrics etc. Green's tools turn out best because those workers know they are getting paid better.

Not even a NS. Just silly.

This was in relation to Asian manufacturing but is worldwide in manufacturing.

Ahh. The old broad but unsubstantiated generalisation.

A bit like a teacher who gets paid $1000 a week teaches better then a teahcer who gates paid half that. They both went through the same collage

A collage is an arrangement of media, as in "she made a collage of pictures cut from the magazine."

they both teach the same subjects they both produce the same product.

Pity, that.

I'm going to add my 2c worth from the perspective of a home hobbiest who is graduating to better quality tools.

Until recently every power tool I've purchased has been cheap and nasty; Ozito 1/4" router, Ozito 10" mitre saw, Ryobi 8" CS, Ozito belt sander, no-name drill press, Ozito power drill, Ryobi angle grinders, Ozito steel cut-off saw.... a few of them have failed over the years, but every one has performed no worse than expected and careful use and patience have seen many successful projects completed to reasonable quality.

I've have only ever bought quality tools to replace cheapies that have failed. My justification being that a) I've learned enough about the performance of the tool to know what I should be buying, and b) I've got enough use from the cheapy that I can appreciate the total cost of ownership of a better quality tool. Of course, there are many modes of failure; mechanical/electrical, performance, versatility to name a few.

In my experience the better quality tool can produce a better result more quickly, but often the expense can't be justified when the extra time and patience will yield the same result. In summary, don't be afraid to purchase a cheap power tool, just be prepared to spend more time tuning it to do the job well and fixing the faults it might create afterwards.

....HB with all due respects never having been to the US (and I have no wish to either) therefore ....

Oh come on.

HB my appologies I guess earth being one planet doesn't come into being one rock no matter.

I do believe your from another universe

I have had many family, freinds and relations go to the US ( I know experience is the best teacher) but for me there is nothing at all I want to see or experience in the USA. Canada on the other hand or even Mexico for me has more to offer..

I have met many US citizens in my line of work.

My appologies again for my spelling mistakes heads all stuffed up with flu no excuse I know.

My appologies once again for not being so perfect to suit your world and its aims of higher intelegence, one day we all may have the same brilliant minds. God I hope not hate being the same as everyone else.

As far as teachers and teaching goes well it comes down to the individual it was only meant as a point not to hyjack the thread. The anaology was all are taught from the same books. Sorry but not all teachers being paid the $1000 are better quaility teachers. I know teachers who stay in the lower end scale who could and have been offered better.



Kman-oz

I'm going to add my 2c worth from the perspective of a home hobbiest who is graduating to better quality tools.

Until recently every power tool I've purchased has been cheap and nasty; Ozito 1/4" router, Ozito 10" mitre saw, Ryobi 8" CS, Ozito belt sander, no-name drill press, Ozito power drill, Ryobi angle grinders, Ozito steel cut-off saw.... a few of them have failed over the years, but every one has performed no worse than expected and careful use and patience have seen many successful projects completed to reasonable quality.

I've have only ever bought quality tools to replace cheapies that have failed. My justification being that a) I've learned enough about the performance of the tool to know what I should be buying, and b) I've got enough use from the cheapy that I can appreciate the total cost of ownership of a better quality tool. Of course, there are many modes of failure; mechanical/electrical, performance, versatility to name a few.

In my experience the better quality tool can produce a better result more quickly, but often the expense can't be justified when the extra time and patience will yield the same result. In summary, don't be afraid to purchase a cheap power tool, just be prepared to spend more time tuning it to do the job well and fixing the faults it might create afterwards.

I do prefer better quality tools also always have its whats sold at the time not whats newer and better thats come along many new tools especially machines leave me cold.

Budget these days dictates my choice.

Glad I payed the extra when I could afford it for those tools I still have, saying that I also still have some cheapies which still do their job as well as my dad's tools and others I have acquired (never from stealing just to clarify).

At one place I worked I only would use and take in cheap tools because of theft by other workers.
Funniest thing that ever happened a guy brought a tool to me asking would I like to buy it as he needed the money, good job the boss standing next to me recognised the tool and markings as mine in the first place.

If buying new tools I still weigh up the benifits the amount of work and possible life span.

One thing I do believe that manufactures should place in their user manuals parts lists on all parts--- supplier manufacture of parts. Bearings, electrical parts no's etc making it easier to obtain replacements.
Many quality tool makers started out as cheapies and have priced themselves out of the market thinking their name/brand was all they needed to survive andkeep the customer
coming back.

Sorry but not all teachers being paid the $1000 are better quaility teachers.

You're the one who made the claim in the first place!

a teacher who gets paid $1000 a week teaches better then a teahcer who gates paid half that

Originally Posted by silentC

You're the one who made the claim in the first place!

Yeh I know SC I was being tounge in cheek and it didn't come out right so I then tried to clear it up without success. Flu is my excuse.
just not well today

We all have days like that...

Personally, I buy the cheap tools when I think I'll use them less than half a dozen times a year. Ive got a no-brand grinder, reciprocating saw and circular saw. The rest though are brand name (mainly Dewalt) and generally cop a fair work out. As for SCMS or anything bigger I would always go a brand name.