Thread: refurbishing wagon wheels

Yes, the wagon is coming along well its been on the go a while ,but we are up to the painting stage.
And life goes on
I will post an up date picture.
Regards
David

Hi David,

it will be good to see how your project is coming along.

The blocks of timber that I started to turn the naves from have dried and split quiet badly while I have been sidetracked for so long, so I will be starting over again with some different timber.
I have some Carbeen (Morton Bay Ash) logs here that I have been milling up, I might use some of the smaller sections for the wagon wheels. I may decide otherwise if the wood proves to be too hard.

If I turn the naves while the wood is still green so its easier to turn ,I will have to leave them oversize to dry out before finishing to the correct size.
Would it be wise to heat the navebonds up and put them on to help minimise cracking, or would the timber shrink too much while drying out and leave them too loose?

On the other hand, I have a big Bloodwood log that has been down about 20 years, which is still in good condition, I cut some up with the chainsaw the other day, it's very hard and dry.
If I managed to turn this stuff and bore out the spindle hole, would I be better off using this to avoid the shrinkage issues, and having to wait to finish it off ?

I think it wont be until the new year before I get time to make another start on this project, so I got a bit of time to contemplate.

one of the tricks we often use in drying timber for naves is to drill out the heart of the timber when it is green, and to turn the outside to a rough diameter, slightly oversize. Another trick to help dry the naves more slowly and to help prevent splitting is to wax the end grain of the wood or paint it.

I have been trying to do some research into Australian hardwoods, as i am in no way an expert, the only wood I have experience with is jarra, fantastic timber for naves, very durable. The main properties that you need to be looking for in timber for naves are:

A twisted interwoven grain that doesn't split easy,

A dense hard grain that doesn't bruise or squash too easily,

And a resistance to rot.


The most important characteristic being the resistance to splitting, especially due to the fact that the spokes will be driven in very tight, and even with tight steel bands, many woods will still have the tendency to split. Also, the axle box (cast iron bearing) needs to be pressed in pretty tight, and wedged in, so splitty wood can be disastrous.

I hope this is a good start, if I can further my studies on Australian hardwoods, I will do my best to post my ideas, in the mean time here are the characteristics of the other timbers required:

The spokes require a durable timber, stiff along the grain, that does not bend or flex easy, or compress under end compression. In the UK we use oak (unfortunately I have to travel to France to collect mine because two world wars have left us with nothing but rubbish)

For the felloes, a springy wood is required, this is to act as a spring (obviously) this helps to absorb the shock of hitting anything in the road such as rocks or going down a hole or rut. In the UK we use ash, and mainly in America and canada I believe they use Hickory. If you imagine a similar wood as you would use in a hammer shaft to absorb the impact.

My only suggestion so far is to weigh up what timber you have available, and maybe to experiment? if anyone has any suggestions?

My videos might be of some interest to you, please do take a look, I am sorry my websites not much use yet, I am not very computer literate, but I can make just about anything in wood or metal!

Phillip Gregson - Wheelwright - Wheelwrighting - Home

Hi Folks,
I've come in on this thread rather late, but I have 'done up' over 300 horse drawn vehicles since 1980, and have built or repaired enough aussie wheels of assorted sizes to know when to keep my mouth shut!

Essentially, it is horrible hard dirty work fixing other peoples' wheels-frequently they want the world done & want you to do it for the love of it...and of course few are prepared to pay for the fact you spent time 15-25+ years ago selecting prime timber to season for future spokes, felloes & hubs.

Yes, Sovereign Hill's set-up is terrific. Most of it came from Healey Bros at Newcastle, NSW, originally. It is still brilliant.
Yes they turn up green timber-for a reason-it's easy on the chisels & cutters & knives.
They have time to wait for it to season properly.

If/when I work on wheels, the timber will have been seasoned thoroughly. Using timber with any sign of greenness or moisture is a mortal sin! I'll repeat that: Using timber with any sign of greenness or moisture is a mortal sin!

I don't do many these days- too busy with better-paying work, and I prefer to be able to do a nice good job for myself, under no pressure.
Anyhow, I'm happy to offer advice here if needed.
Ironbark makes the best hubs/naves. Bloodwood is too 'splitty'. Any tough grainy aussie hardwood will be OK if ironark is too hard to get-but make sure it's dead dry!
Tallowwood or spotted gum makes the best spokes.
Sydney Blue gum, quarter-sawn, makes the best felloes.

There's a lot of science, or experience, in knowing how much to add or subtract here & there for tolerances, taking up & 'giving' as they tyre shrinks (or is sweated on) to the felloes.It is a big mistake to have too much 'tightness', between the outer circumference/length of the felloes & the tyre inner length.Must go for now.

Thanks for the info Stewey. I'm glad you warned me about the Bloodwood, I have been eyeing off an old log on one corner off my property for some time now, I was going to cut some for the naves.

This project is sitting on the backburner, as I own a business that takes up most of my time, also trying to renovate my house.
The wagon wheels are leaning up against the side of the shed, waiting.
Hopefully I can call on you and Wheelwright for advise when I get back to them.

I'd be happy to help, in a verbal/keyboard sense!

(edited to add that I don't mean to appear to be usurping 'Wheelwright' above, but I do have practical expereince with our timbers.
Sydney blue gum was the main felloe timber due to its ability to 'grip' the tyres better than other timbers. Springiness isn't terrific
at all with it. Its other main use was for roof battens, because it could 'grip' the roofing-iron nails well, I was told.
However spotted gum for the spokes was preferred as it did have some spring!)

It sounds to me that the gum may also perform well as a shock absorber, as its ability to grip nails well probably shows it has a bit of give, sounds like a good timber. We once used poplar a similar timber for bed boards for wagons and wooden wheelbarrow sides, due to the fact that you could throw bricks on them etc without causing serious damage, but unfortunately its hard to get it in planks now, some areas still grow plantations of it for matches, but they are getting rare.

brittle timbers are no good, although that's probably obvious.

As regards dry timber...
Depending on your atmospheric humidity, it might be worth building a basic kiln to ensure your timber is dry enough. we work on around 8 to 12 percent moisture content in the uk, always towards the lower end of the scale. Most timbers become brittle any lower, and if any higher they will shrink after construction... leading to disaster. I know I am probably repeating what other people have said, but it is important.

One of the funny bits of advice I often get off members of the public who know my job better than me is to 'soak the wood after the hoop is on so the wheel tightens up' you would be surprised how many people think this is the norm! they rarely like it when I inform them that the wheel will fall to pieces when it dries out!


Sorry I have gone off on a tangent again!

Yes, I get that 'throw them in the dam' comment a lot for them well-meaning public, followed by the 'it always used to work for us' comment part 2!

The springiness of the spotted gum, or sometimes tallowwood is the reason they're liked for spokes, as far as I have always known.
I wouldn't have said Sydney Blue Gum was all that springy though-it can be a bit brittle, but I guess it's still sufficiently resilient for the job, as the old rule of thumb was that that was the best stuff to use.

I guess your UK climate has a different humidity range than our aussie one, but here we definitely need the low end of that mositure range, or there's a likelihood that a wheel will shrink & get loose if it dries out further-that becomes a life-threatening siituation.

Cobb & Co, the famous Aussie coaching firm built their final factory at Charleville, in western Qld, for its 'deserty' environment, knowing that any vehicles they built there would not fall to bits no matter where in Australia they subsequently despatched them to- unlike some vehicles built in the coastal cities & towns!

It is great to get an insight into wheelwrighting in Aus! thanks for sharing your knowledge stewey, Its great to see that on opposite sides of the world, wheelwrighting follows pretty much the same principals.
I must admit, in the UK, especially where I live, the moisture content of timber dried outside is often between 16 to 20 percent, hence the need for a kiln, even when it is warm over here there is still a lot of moisture in the atmosphere.
My workshops are a 10 minute walk from the coast, and I can see the 'famous' Blackpool tower from my place, so the moisture meter is off the scale.

As a matter of interest Stewey...
Are most of the wheels you encounter warner type wheels, with the spokes fitted into a cast iron socketed band around the nave? or do they tend to be straight forward solid wood naves? and do the wheels you encounter tend to have staggered spokes or are they often in line?

The European styles of wheels tend to vary massively from those in the UK, but as rough as they look, they are strong, and last well! I know that in America and canada the styles and construction of wheels where an amalgamation of British and European styles, using the best of both, I can only presume a similar approach was taken in Aus?

I hope you don't mind my thirst for knowledge, I like to be as informed as possible, my trade is more of a passion than a job to me, I suppose it has to be because the money isn't exactly great.

I am visiting Perth in June, can anyone point me in the direction of anything that might interest me? I would love to see anything like carriage collections, workshops etc. I would be very grateful of any guidance!

I wish you all a great new year!
And please don't blame me for the ashes, I don't play cricket

"Most" of the wheels I come across would be 40:60 or maybe nearer to 50:50 plain turned hub wheels & sarven hub wheels. Warner hub ones are in a great minority, other than maybe in the odd museum or folk village if you're lucky.

Of the turned ones, most are staggered spoke ones- very few I come across are inline (not counting the sarven ones). 1/2" stagger would be the most common average, I'd say.

Imported American sarvens were used here in a big way circa 1900 +/- 30 years on sulkies & buggies- lighter passenger vehicles. Heavier sarvens are as infrequently seen here as warner hubs tend to be. i.e. they exist, but are pretty scarce.

The staggered spoke wheels were more on spring carts, trade or delivery carts, lorries & waggons, and heavier passenger vehicles like waggonettes, drags etc as well as some classier sulkies & buggies. (Plus landaus, victorias etc)

I'm not familiar with the museum scene around Perth-the state museum in the city is nice, but it's more dinasaurs & gems & things. I'm not sure if there's a transportt museum there. El Caballo Blanco at Woorooloo a hundred or more km east or Perth used to have a terrific collection in the 1970s, but it may have been disbanded-I don't know. (Perth is about 6000km west of us)

If you really want to see some good stuff, get to Sovereign Hill at Ballarat, Vic., ( a couple of hours NW from Melbourne) for some original old Defiance brand wheelmaking machinery in action, plus a West's Patent cold tyre setter.
The Vic State museum in Melbourne is OK-they used to have an original Concord Jack coach, but not a lot more.

If you get to Qld, the Cobb & Co Museum in Toowoomba is goodish & isn't far from us-it's still about 2 hours west of Brisbane.

In NSW, the Powerhouse Museum in the middle of Sydney is good-not many carriages but still a great museum, and there's a good one at Monte Cristo, at Junee, about 1/2 way between Sydney & Melbourne.

There are probably a few more, but most would be private & not open to the public.
It's not like in UK. The greatest displays of horse drawn vehicles in good order is usually at the eastern states' capital cities' Royal Shows in Easter, August & September, plus maybe a few state carriage show driving championships, often around March-May or Sept.

Most historical villages at most towns will have something-a few vehicles in various stages of quality or disrepair. There used to be a great collection at Rockhampton in Central Qld, and a so-so collection at Gulgong, vaguely in the middle of NSW-though they 'restored' everything in the early 1980s by painting it all in either canary yellow, process blue or mission brown and ruined the entire collection!

Sorry I can't be of greater help.

Fantastic help, thanks again stewey, I will endeavour to see what I can fit in! I only wish I had enough time to explore the country more, although Im sure I will be back!

Thanks again!

This is a link to a 4 meg donwload of a catalogue of most/some of the Defiance machinery they have at Sovereign Hill, plus more of course !
http://www.owwm.com/pubs/detail.aspx?id=1741
and click on the View PDF link below the picture on the left.

Originally Posted by wheelwright

Are most of the wheels you encounter warner type wheels, with the spokes fitted into a cast iron socketed band around the nave? or do they tend to be straight forward solid wood naves? and do the wheels you encounter tend to have staggered spokes or are they often in line?

Couple of years ago at The National Wood Fair Bank Holiday Monday I saw a wheelwright with a massive treadle lathe for hub making. At home he said he had a hub metal treadle lathe; that could turn and mortice a hub in 20 minutes or so. I recall he was based near Loughborough. There is the remains of a wooden hub lathe in the Nuneaton Museum; found on the Arley Estate where the authoress George Elliott lived.

Bob the Bodger