Thread: replacing ER collet 'M' series (castle nut) with 'UM' series?

So I just got a reply from Armana tools. I think they had the apprentice monitoring the job queues that day (or the guy is just a dope)

My question to them:
Message: Hi, I'm looking to replace an ER25M collet nut, that has M30x1.0 thread, with a collet nut that has straight slots (not tapered like my current ER25M nut). It appears your CON-ER25M would be a straight swap for ER25M collet nut?? Can you confirm this is correct, and also what spanner is suitable for your CON-ER25M nut? Can I only use a C-spanner, or can I use a 'UM' series spanner? If so, what size spanner will be required? Thanks for your help.

Their reply:
Thank you for your email. I am sorry, but any returns or swapping of tools must go through the dealer where you purchased the tooling from.
Best regards,
Frank


It appears Frank can't comprehend more than 1 sentence (or was in a hurry to get home/drunk).
I've tried rephrasing my questions to them - we'll see if Frank can understand it this time. Unfortunately they don't have a live chat option, so we'll play email ping-pong for a while. More updates to follow...

I don't bother with email in situations like this and have found a phone call always sorts it out in a few minutes. International phone calls for me are .02c a minute and that is a miniscule cost for a quick result.

Originally Posted by Chris Parks

I don't bother with email in situations like this and have found a phone call always sorts it out in a few minutes. International phone calls for me are .02c a minute and that is a miniscule cost for a quick result.

and the time zone difference. My wife & I did not appreciate a return phone call at 2 am.

Originally Posted by Mobyturns

and the time zone difference. My wife & I did not appreciate a return phone call at 2 am.

Why would you get a return phone call, I give them enough information and arrange a phone call from me at a time that suits me if the issue can't be sorted out on the first call. Even 30 minutes on the phone only costs 60 cents and I have made many calls for business that lasted that long and saved days and days of emails going back and forwards. I have been doing this for years when I was running a business and never had any issues but I must admit the US East coast can be a bit of a problem and Amana are on the East Coast. Emails are overrated when it comes to problem solving.

Originally Posted by TimberNut

It appears Frank can't comprehend more than 1 sentence (or was in a hurry to get home/drunk).

Maybe the word spanner threw him.

Nah, its the word swap. It's usually just associated with swap meets and wives in the US.

Originally Posted by Chris Parks

Why would you get a return phone call, I give them enough information and arrange a phone call from me at a time that suits me if the issue can't be sorted out on the first call. Even 30 minutes on the phone only costs 60 cents and I have made many calls for business that lasted that long and saved days and days of emails going back and forwards. I have been doing this for years when I was running a business and never had any issues but I must admit the US East coast can be a bit of a problem and Amana are on the East Coast. Emails are overrated when it comes to problem solving.

Mine was from Mark Baker (RIP) Editor of UK Woodturning magazine doing follow up on articles I had written. Then his staff did the same thing a day later not knowing I was in Oz.

All sorted but at the time my Mum was really ill, so an early morning phone call got us on edge pretty quickly. Mark was very responsive and supportive, so glad to have met him in person at Turnfest, simply a wonderful gentleman, mentor, editor & woodturner.

Just to close the thread…

I received my ER 20 UM spanner, and with five minutes of file work it fits the ER25M nut. Now I can get away with 5mm of bit projection instead of 14. I am happy with that as all but about 2mm of the bit shaft is fully engaged in the collet. The file work isn’t pretty, but it works.

Hi Greg,
thanks for the update. Yes it seems we were on the right track with Felder supplying us an OEM ER20UM bent spanner in the first place.
I'm about to place an order for one of those Amana Tools nuts. I've only gotten useless info back from the wingnut manning the Amana Tools tech support emails, and it appears I know more about the nut they are manufacturing, than he does, so I think I'm right that that nut will fit.
It's going to cost me ~$25 postage (plus the price of the nut, which was ~$45 from memory) to find out if it's right or not but I'm pretty sure it'll work, and I'd rather the straight slots, and buy an ER spanner off ebay and bend it.
I'm not sure there'd be huge savings in getting you one to save on freight as I'd still have to freight it to you when it arrived which will be ~$10 anyways so can't see any real savings there for you, and if the nut doesn't fit, then we'll both have useless nuts! )

I'll update the thread when I've ordered it and got it my hands to let you know if it's worth you chasing one up too.

So I took the plunge and ordered that Armana Tools nut. Price was $46 + $18.13 postage = $64.13, so not a cheap nut, but details on the Armana Tools website state that nut has M30x1.0 thread, so it SHOULD fit, despite what Mr I-dont-know-my-own-product has to say about it. When he tells me the reason it won't fit my machine with the same thread, is because they don't have a spanner for it (yes that's what he said), then I have no confidence is him whatsoever.
Of course, it's entirely possible my new $65 nut will not fit and be a waste of $$, and he'll be right and I'll look like a goose, but all I can really go off, is the details on their website, and if it does indeed have M30x1.0 thread then it will work, and I'll just have to figure out what UM spanner would be applicable (and no, he couldn't tell me that, no matter how many different ways I phrased my question).
So once the nut arrives we'll see
a - does it fit?
b - what spanner will I need to get
c - can I heat and bend said spanner so that I can tighten bits with that nut in the spindle.

More details to follow, when the nut arrives......

Hey…sorry for the late reply-another adventure in multitasking gone awry.

Here’s hoping the Amana nut works. Its odd that no one makes a hex ER nut that size, which they seem to do for all the other sizes.

As it stands for the moment I am happy enough with my customised spanner, but that's assuming I get a secure fixing in the Ear collet. Thinking about that, my router’s collet is shallower than the ER, and I have only had cheap MLCS bits try to migrate out of the collet.

Greg

Hi Greg,
yes, I may also buy and modify another spanner as you have done (that was my Plan-B).

I'll update this thread when the Armana Tools nut arrives from OS, and let you know if it is worth the effort, and cost. I'm expecting that it will fit, and then I'll just need to work out what size UM spanner to get to use with it. I gave up trying to get any sense out of Armana tech support so asking them about appropriate spanner sizing would have taken my remaining will to live. If it does fit, I'll post pictures and details here for your reference (and anyone else interested).

Ok, so finally my new replacement/additional collet nut arrived from US.
It has taken 6 weeks to get here, and I was so excited when I got the package.......
20220726_122306.jpg


.....and then I opened it.......

20220726_122406.jpg

I can report the following -
- does it hold an ER25 collet - yes
- does it have M30x1.0 thread same as my Felder spindle - yes
- does it have straight slots - no
- is it any different from the collet nut that came with the Felder machine - no, same damn thing!

So I went back and checked photos on the Armana tools website, and lots of googling later the status is:
ER25M - has M30x1.0 thread
ER25UM, ER25GM - have M32x1.5 thread.

So you the ONLY collet nut that will fit my Felder machine is ER25M. And no matter how hard I look, I can't find ANY option that will get me a collet nut with M30x1.0 thread AND straight slots. So I'm stuck with a collet nut that has sloped slots as documented in this thread.
So Greg, it looks like I'll be doing the same as you, and buying an ER20UM spanner and filing the teeth on slopes. It would appear that is the only solution to this conundrum.
I thought about emailing Armana to tell them their photos are all wrong, but I just can't summon the enthusiasm.
The only plus is I wanted a 2nd collet nut so I don't have to keep removing collets from the nuts when swapping between 1/4 in and 1/2in bits so it's not a total waste.

Looking at the nut and spanner that came with the machine - the grooves in the nut aren't worn, but the teeth on the spanner are, so I guess a couple of new spanners, modified the same as Greg has done, will be the best option, and I'll just have to replace them as the spanners wear with use.

There is one last avenue to explore - buying a replacement spindle that takes a UM collet nut, as it's a possibility that the spindle in the machine is a generic item and not milled by Felder, so maybe that may work, but I can't get enthused about that right now.

Ahhh crap. I was hoping for your sake that it would turn out better. As we now know, expert customer service, or even basic product familiarity, seems to be extinct. I have seen that generic one-size-fits-all illustration problem before and have learned to ignore websites built with no attention to detail.

I haven’t even used my router spindle yet since I have been doing my moulder work on my big Steton, but I do have a couple of Felder specific jobs for it coming up. Plus I need to get rid of the Steton soon, or other Felder. Too many machines in too little space.

Greg