Thread: Which SawStop

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Hey Vovo, I did a lot of research when shopping recently and the overwhelming consensus was that Sawstops are really well made and about as good as it gets when looking at cabinet saws. The differences and benefits of these vs saws with an inbuilt sliding table is something only you can evaluate.
I got quotes on 2 models of Hammer and 3 of Minimax , I almost bought a Minimax Sc2 but ended up buying an Sc4, it hasn't been delivered yet.
Best of luck

Let me bounce a few things off of you.

I attended a community college (Years 13 & 14) for several semesters taking woodworking courses. The college has had a woodworking program for 30 to 40 years. Their safety record is enviable, never an amputation. The internal politics are brutal. There is a faction that wants the building and budget for other purposes. This faction forced the woodworking department to install Saw Stop table saws for "safety" reasons. That faction assumed that the cost of the Saw Stop equipment would force the woodworking department to close. The department chair pulled a very sneaky trick that did not endear himself to the rest of the college staff. He went out to industry and got them to "Sponsor" the table saws.

So here it is about 10 years later, I bump into the department chair at AWFS in Las Vegas. During a conversation, I asked if the school experienced any blade drops. His reply was "Dozens". He went on to say that he couldn't remember all the drops and that only one involved blood. He went on to say that wet wood, treated wood, hitting the miter gauge or tape measures accounted for the others.

To put things in a 'work every day perspective'. The Saw Stop saws are Left tilt. Nothing wrong with that. However what left tilt means is that the arbor flange is on the left side of the blade. In this case, it is the left side of the blade that is constant reference to the fence. The right side of the blade, in reference to the fence, will change with every blade change. Why is this important? When you go to make a rip cut, you will measure from the fence to the blade with your tape. Most of us will move the blade by hand to get the appropriate tooth next to the tape. I have been told that when the tape touches the blade, there is a drop. That equals a scrapped blade and a new cartridge.

Just life in the big city.

Originally Posted by vovo

...Not that keen on dropping a lot of money on something that isn't the best...

Well, the best is likely a bit subjective - best for you, best quality, best you can afford...

In sliders, arguably the Martins are "the best" - but these are VERY expensive machines and are not available (as far as I know) in smaller slider lengths


This guy has an incredible hobby shop based around Martin equipment (he has videos showing his Martin slider, planer, spindle moulder...)


If you want to stick with short stroke saws & a "better" option to the Hammer, you could consider the Felder K500 - its a step up in quality, but also price.

Others might comment on the comparative quality of SCM Minimax with Hammer.

Also, you could consider a saw/spindle moulder combo (I assume you don't need to consider a planer thicknesser ) - adding a spindle moulder could be considered "better"

For short stroke, the Hammer B3 is one option. The Felder KF700 is another, and SCM have similar in their lineup.

Here is some info on the B3


Frankly, I don't think you would regret the Hammer, even if there are "better" saws available. The argument for more upmarket saws tend to be longevity & reliability in production shops where these things take a beating and work pretty much non-stop. In a hobby shop, you are looking after the machine and it will get comparitively light use. If that's not the case, then sure, look for heavier duty machines - but they come with significantly higher price tags. And I suspect you don't need the CNC or electronics of some of the high end production saws.
Accuracy should not be a concern - just look at the quality of the work Derek turn out.

In regard the choice between the SawStop (which is at the higher end of quality for a traditional cabinet saw) and a slider - I have not heard of anyone who switched from a traditional cabinet saw who has regretted the slider or who has swapped back.
I recall someone saying that going back from a slider would feel like the equivalent downgrading from a cabinet saw to a portable job-site saw.

Recently upgraded to a Harvey HW110LGE-30, just arrived yesterday. Have been interested in Sawstop for a while but not a fan of their anti competitive business practices or regional price gouging. Spent half as much for what is essentially a comparable saw minus the safety feature. Time will tell whether I regret this but I'm a sensible guy.

Hi Vovo,

I have the 36” SawStop Professional Cabinet Saw, and it is wonderfull. I upgraded from a borrowed Jet unit a couple of years ago. There have have only been a couple of times the longer rail would have been useful, but found a way around it. Were I to do it again, I would get the 36” again. Long enough for 99% of my uses.

I’m sure you have read all the reviews and articles in your research. Were it lost to me, I would go out and buy another one.

While I would like an European slider, they were a good 50% more expensive than the SawStop, so out of my reach.

Good luck with the purchase, having a powerful, accurate and reliable saw it a game changer.

Originally Posted by rrich

When you go to make a rip cut, you will measure from the fence to the blade with your tape. Most of us will move the blade by hand to get the appropriate tooth next to the tape. I have been told that when the tape touches the blade, there is a drop. That equals a scrapped blade and a new cartridge.

The blade will only drop if contact is made whilst the saw is running.

Can you explain why you need to measure between the fence and blade with every rip operation? I thought the normal procedure was to measure once then calibrate your fence, so that all future operations use the rail measurements. Perhaps I’m. misunderstanding what you’re trying to say.

[reworded because my initial response was rude, sorry.]

The short stroke slider available these days will most probably have a smaller footprint than a 51" cabinet saw and you will save a lot of miles walking around the slider compared to a full sized cabinet saw. The feed in and feed out areas are the same for both and most buyers of short sliders will find they no longer need a mitre saw. Another advantage and the single thing a SS can't do is eliminate kick back when ripping on the sliding table because it can't happen and there are so I am told more kick back injuries than finger/hand injuries when using cabinet saws. The overall capability to do different things on a slider is many many times what any cabinet saw can do. I don't consider Hammer any better than Minimax which are the two prominent European brands but there are other Asian saws available as well. For the ultimate all round safety the slider wins out when used correctly. Maybe someone in Brissy can show you one in action.

Edit: Ask any slider seller to put you in touch with one of their customers so you can have a chat and see one in use. I did this before I put down money and it was the single best thing I did.

Originally Posted by RossM

Well, the best is likely a bit subjective - best for you, best quality, best you can afford...

In sliders, arguably the Martins are "the best" - but these are VERY expensive machines and are not available (as far as I know) in smaller slider lengths


This guy has an incredible hobby shop based around Martin equipment (he has videos showing his Martin slider, planer, spindle moulder...)


If you want to stick with short stroke saws & a "better" option to the Hammer, you could consider the Felder K500 - its a step up in quality, but also price.

Others might comment on the comparative quality of SCM Minimax with Hammer.

Also, you could consider a saw/spindle moulder combo (I assume you don't need to consider a planer thicknesser ) - adding a spindle moulder could be considered "better"

For short stroke, the Hammer B3 is one option. The Felder KF700 is another, and SCM have similar in their lineup.

Here is some info on the B3


Frankly, I don't think you would regret the Hammer, even if there are "better" saws available. The argument for more upmarket saws tend to be longevity & reliability in production shops where these things take a beating and work pretty much non-stop. In a hobby shop, you are looking after the machine and it will get comparitively light use. If that's not the case, then sure, look for heavier duty machines - but they come with significantly higher price tags. And I suspect you don't need the CNC or electronics of some of the high end production saws.
Accuracy should not be a concern - just look at the quality of the work Derek turn out.

In regard the choice between the SawStop (which is at the higher end of quality for a traditional cabinet saw) and a slider - I have not heard of anyone who switched from a traditional cabinet saw who has regretted the slider or who has swapped back.
I recall someone saying that going back from a slider would feel like the equivalent downgrading from a cabinet saw to a portable job-site saw.

Martins are good but the last Altendorf I had was a better machine I reckon, and it was $16,000 cheaper than the martin equivalent. I worked at a place and ran a Martin spindle moulder that was worth $90,000, and it was a good machine but still produced a cut that was equivalent to my 80 year old, well tuned Robinson. Horses for courses really.

Here is a video of Ishitani in which he uses a (Shimohira?) Japanese short-stroke table saw - which is used for crosscutting. All in the first 4 minutes ...




In regard to this thread and the choices to be made: if I did not know what a slider could do, I would be ecstatic to own a SawStop. In fact, I think that they are bloody good saws, and a viable option - just different, and that is what it comes down to at the end of the day ... how you prefer to use a table saw. No one is at a disadvantage for owning and using a SS. A slider just offers a few more options ... but this does come at a price, and one must decide whether it is worth it. After all, there are a great number of tools and machines we all aspire towards, but that does not mean that we work any the less for not owning them.

When I looked at the SS, the one I wanted was the 36" rip fence along with the sliding attachment.

Regards from Perth

Derek

About 10 years ago Jet made a sliding saw, small like their usual tablesaws. In many ways it seemed ideal, but they no longer seem to make it. I do wonder why.

I ended up with a Felder CF731 combination machine, which is in my double garage. I was lucky on the price and at that time had the money. It's a nice unit for sure, but not essential. One thing about that Felder is, it was fitted with the old style they had of a DC braking unit. This is the device that feeds direct current into the motor windings after you power off, to bring the motor to a fast standstill. Well, the thyristor blew out and I was stuck for a while without a DC braking unit. I disconnected the DC unit fairly simply as a stopgap measure so I could keep using the saw. And I can tell you, that's a scary feeling, having a 3kW saw or planer or router spindle just spinning there for ages after you switch of the power, while you are removing your workpiece. Requires a lot more care and concentration well after the intense event of cutting (intense, because you should never, ever, forget it's inherently bloody dangerous). I was very glad when I eventually fitted the new DC braking unit and brought the beast under control. So the moral of that story: if you get a sliding saw, do make sure it has DC braking. Personally I think it is possible, if you are a person able to focus and concentrate (and not everyone can, either by their personality or because of an environment of unexpected interruptions), that you can live without a Sawstop. But you do definitely want a saw that the blade stops within 3 or 4 seconds.

There are a lot of advantages to the sliding table system (I can't speak for Chinese knock-offs though) but I also think that fixed-table cabinet saws are quite alright. I'd be happy enough if I had to downsize back to a well made fixed-table tablesaw (actually I've still got my old Jet although its disassembled - I keep it for site work). As someone mentioned above, you can add a router table into the wing, and you also can add a long outfeed table made of particle board. When all adjusted and with a few jigs, they are accurate and versatile, and not at all to be looked down upon.

I upgraded to a sliding table saw. I just saw the slider as a upgrade progression and have not regretted it.

I ended up with a Hammer K3 Winner but that was because SCM were difficult to have a conversation with. The SCM looked very viable and came in many flavours.

Go and try one is the best suggestion however make sure to ask/get the floor foot print required and add a bit around that for clearance for you to get around it.

PS. On resale, single phase is easier to find buyers for than 3 phase in my opinion

Originally Posted by riverbuilder

Martins are good but the last Altendorf I had was a better machine I reckon, and it was $16,000 cheaper than the martin equivalent. I worked at a place and ran a Martin spindle moulder that was worth $90,000, and it was a good machine but still produced a cut that was equivalent to my 80 year old, well tuned Robinson. Horses for courses really.

Haha - ya can't beat the old cast iron!!
Mass certainly has its advantages in smooth running.

Originally Posted by Chris Parks

The short stroke slider available these days will most probably have a smaller footprint than a 51" cabinet saw and you will save a lot of miles walking around the slider compared to a full sized cabinet saw. The feed in and feed out areas are the same for both and most buyers of short sliders will find they no longer need a mitre saw. Another advantage and the single thing a SS can't do is eliminate kick back when ripping on the sliding table because it can't happen and there are so I am told more kick back injuries than finger/hand injuries when using cabinet saws. The overall capability to do different things on a slider is many many times what any cabinet saw can do. I don't consider Hammer any better than Minimax which are the two prominent European brands but there are other Asian saws available as well. For the ultimate all round safety the slider wins out when used correctly. Maybe someone in Brissy can show you one in action.

Edit: Ask any slider seller to put you in touch with one of their customers so you can have a chat and see one in use. I did this before I put down money and it was the single best thing I did.

Great point Chris - The kickback issue is, I think, one of the reasons that injury rates seem much lower in EU than US for tablesaw users.

Also, with regard to the rip length on a short stroke slider, this does not have to be a real limitation. Here is a solution if you do need to straightline a long board: